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Post by Nyron Nosworthy on Aug 19, 2011 13:15:56 GMT -5
The bottom line is ... if Liam proves that Noel is lying, Noel's reputation with the public and press is going down hill. He doesn't have to prove that Noel was lying. But Noel just has to prove that he had reasonable ground to believe what he said. Unfortunately for Liam that won't be hard The fact is that that was a popular theory around the V-festival cancellation. Liam went out to a football match hooted, hollared, smoked, and drank. Good luck to Liam defending himself against that. Liam won't be able to win this for losing. Frankly, Noel Gallagher is way to press savvy to get bogged down by this. Noel is gonna walk out of this smelling like roses and he isn't even gonna need to do much. Noel Gallagher daring to besmirch the impeccable professional reputation of Liam Gallagher? How will anyone ever take Noel seriously again! As if! I go to football matches every week and drink, shout and sing. That doesn't mean I am unable to work the following day. I'd ask for disciplinary action to be taken against any of my colleagues if they claimed I was hungover after missing work due to a genuine illness.
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Post by gdforever on Aug 19, 2011 13:17:39 GMT -5
I am upset because frivilous legal garbage is a pet peeve of mine given my line of work. I see way too much of this sort of crap. Too many people use the court system as a weapon to salve their hurt feelings. Where there is no definable injury or damage (as in this case), just fucking let it go! This. Noel was a moron for having said the comment in the first place. He should have just said there was backlash in the media because of insinuation that Liam had actually been hungover which made Liam upset and was the reason for the fight. After all explaining the fight was the only reason that he mentioned V. He should have kept his gob shut about his personal opinion about why the gig was actually cancelled. But Liam is also a moron for drag this into the courts now even though he has a case. Noel's opinion wasn't novel. Liam is upset because it makes him look bad. But the fact is that putting it on the front page is only going to make more people aware of Noel's comment and even if he wins the court case it'll probably be buried on the back pages and no one will give a shit about the outcome they'll only remember read that Noel had said that Liam had been hungover and Liam was pissed about it.
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Post by ctmazin on Aug 19, 2011 13:21:48 GMT -5
I've explained many times why I think it isn't damaging to his professional reputation or financial situation. The fact that Liam may have been hungover and missed a show would not change the public's perception of LG one bit. And I'm at a loss as to what financial loss Liam might have suffered as a result of the statement--loss of income? missed festivals? lower fees? Please fill me in.
If the V Festival is planning on suing Oasis/Liam for damages, then this lawsuit makes sense to me. Otherwise it doesn't.
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Post by jaq515 on Aug 19, 2011 13:21:52 GMT -5
Nyron.
you speak sense. I am sure somebody will argue against you for the sake.
Liam's got a medical document saying he was ill. noel's video was edited to take noel's comment out Noel's comment is damaging as it makes liam out to have broken a contract / commitment, also potentially people wouldn't buy tickets in the future fearing liam could be hung over and cancel. this will without a doubt be settled out of court.
every one going round in circles but these are pretty much the facts not perception
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Post by gdforever on Aug 19, 2011 13:25:21 GMT -5
He doesn't have to prove that Noel was lying. But Noel just has to prove that he had reasonable ground to believe what he said. Unfortunately for Liam that won't be hard The fact is that that was a popular theory around the V-festival cancellation. Liam went out to a football match hooted, hollared, smoked, and drank. Good luck to Liam defending himself against that. Liam won't be able to win this for losing. Frankly, Noel Gallagher is way to press savvy to get bogged down by this. Noel is gonna walk out of this smelling like roses and he isn't even gonna need to do much. Noel Gallagher daring to besmirch the impeccable professional reputation of Liam Gallagher? How will anyone ever take Noel seriously again! As if! I go to football matches every week and drink, shout and sing. That doesn't mean I am unable to work the following day. I'd ask for disciplinary action to be taken against any of my colleagues if they claimed I was hungover after missing work due to a genuine illness. And if they refused to apologize you'd take them to high court? I agree Noel never should have made that comment. But this lawsuit it taking it to extremes. They aren't even employed together as you are suggesting. If a man you had been working with quit the company later you found out that he had said you had been hungover on a day that you were sick...what would have done? You can't go to the company. He refuses to apologize. Would you really sue? Whoever wins...and really who give a shit the legal system is moronic anyways...filing this suit was stupid and gains nothing for anyone. Noel will look like a lying bastard and Liam will look like whiny bitch and everyone can watch the circus of the Gallaghers while ignoring the music.
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Post by songbird11 on Aug 19, 2011 13:25:29 GMT -5
Well gem & chris are still in contact with noel so maybe liam has tried via them to contact him.Ok people say it's weird liam leaves it a month after noels press conference??? ok after the oasis split why did noel leave it all that time before having the press conference?? time to think up all this shit i reckon.I definitely believe Liam & dont blame him,i wouldn't say he looks an idiot for this.If it were any of you in a band with a brother/sister etc after all them years im sure it'd get to ya & fuck you off.Why should liam let it go & just have oasis fans believing every word of noel's???
Some of ya's are weird imo for oasis fans moaning about em being on the cover of the sun ... fuckin hell cheryl cole has made loads of covers for complete shit reasons & lady ga ga etc .... fuck that.
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Post by Nyron Nosworthy on Aug 19, 2011 13:26:37 GMT -5
I've explained many times why I think it isn't damaging to his professional reputation or financial situation. The fact that Liam may have been hungover and missed a show would not change the public's perception of LG one bit. And I'm at a loss as to what financial loss Liam might have suffered as a result of the statement--loss of income? missed festivals? lower fees? Please fill me in. If the V Festival is planning on suing Oasis/Liam for damages, then this lawsuit makes sense to me. Otherwise it doesn't. He could argue all three but isn't. The statement actually says "All I want is an apology." Again, Noel claimed that Liam breached a contract, lacked professionalism and showed disregard to his fans. How is this not damaging? Past reputation is largely irrelevant.
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Post by ctmazin on Aug 19, 2011 13:27:04 GMT -5
"I go to football matches every week and drink, shout and sing. That doesn't mean I am unable to work the following day. I'd ask for disciplinary action to be taken against any of my colleagues if they claimed I was hungover after missing work due to a genuine illness."
Fair enough, but if you showed up for work, due to give a big presentation, with a doctor's note for laryngitis, and had been seen drinking heavily and hollering at a football match the night before, before it would make you seem a hell of a lot less credible.
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Post by jaq515 on Aug 19, 2011 13:31:28 GMT -5
but legally it wouldn't matter if your employer then tried to discipline or even speak negatively because of those reasons they would fine themselves in bother
bottom line is liam did have a sick note
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Post by Nyron Nosworthy on Aug 19, 2011 13:31:53 GMT -5
I go to football matches every week and drink, shout and sing. That doesn't mean I am unable to work the following day. I'd ask for disciplinary action to be taken against any of my colleagues if they claimed I was hungover after missing work due to a genuine illness. And if they refused to apologize you'd take them to high court? I agree Noel never should have made that comment. But this lawsuit it taking it to extremes. They aren't even employed together as you are suggesting. If a man you had been working with quit the company later you found out that he had said you had been hungover on a day that you were sick...what would have done? You can't go to the company. He refuses to apologize. Would you really sue? Whoever wins...and really who give a shit the legal system is moronic anyways...filing this suit was stupid and gains nothing for anyone. Noel will look like a lying bastard and Liam will look like whiny bitch and everyone can watch the circus of the Gallaghers while ignoring the music. Of course I wouldn't sue, I was speaking relatively. Colleague X claiming that Colleague Y was faking a sickday isn't anywhere near as damaging as a high profile musician claiming that another high profile musician breached a lucrative contract, is it? I wasn't saying they are employed together - they were hired by the V Festival promoters and signed a contract to perform. I'm no expert in music contracts but I'd imagine the contract required them to turn up in a fit state. Noel claims that Liam didn't and therefore breached the contract. What part of this do people not understand?
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Post by songbird11 on Aug 19, 2011 13:32:48 GMT -5
I hope noel does apologise he should do,it's like whatever he says,goes.Ok in the past liam has been hungover & cancelled gigs etc but i believe him this time.
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Post by Nyron Nosworthy on Aug 19, 2011 13:40:14 GMT -5
"I go to football matches every week and drink, shout and sing. That doesn't mean I am unable to work the following day. I'd ask for disciplinary action to be taken against any of my colleagues if they claimed I was hungover after missing work due to a genuine illness." Fair enough, but if you showed up for work, due to give a big presentation, with a doctor's note for laryngitis, and had been seen drinking heavily and hollering at a football match the night before, before it would make you seem a hell of a lot less credible. I'd take them to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal / constructive dismissal faster than you can say "pint of lager". If a doctor signs me off with laryngitis then they have no right whatsoever to comment on it.
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Post by gdforever on Aug 19, 2011 13:42:10 GMT -5
And if they refused to apologize you'd take them to high court? I agree Noel never should have made that comment. But this lawsuit it taking it to extremes. They aren't even employed together as you are suggesting. If a man you had been working with quit the company later you found out that he had said you had been hungover on a day that you were sick...what would have done? You can't go to the company. He refuses to apologize. Would you really sue? Whoever wins...and really who give a shit the legal system is moronic anyways...filing this suit was stupid and gains nothing for anyone. Noel will look like a lying bastard and Liam will look like whiny bitch and everyone can watch the circus of the Gallaghers while ignoring the music. Of course I wouldn't sue, I was speaking relatively. Colleague X claiming that Colleague Y was faking a sickday isn't anywhere near as damaging as a high profile musician claiming that another high profile musician breached a lucrative contract, is it? I wasn't saying they are employed together - they were hired by the V Festival promoters and signed a contract to perform. I'm no expert in music contracts but I'd imagine the contract required them to turn up in a fit state. Noel claims that Liam didn't and therefore breached the contract. What part of this do people not understand? Why are people acting like Liam had some sort of viral or bacterial laryngitis that he couldn't have done anything about. Laryngitis simply means his vocal chords were inflamed it DOES NOT mean he was ill in a medical sense. Just that he wasn't fit to preform. Like ctmazin said. If you came in too hoarse to give a big presentation and had been observed by people he knows hooting, hollaring, drinking, and smoking at a football match the next before I know I would damn well be called into an office.
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Post by ctmazin on Aug 19, 2011 13:44:00 GMT -5
"He could argue all three but isn't. The statement actually says "All I want is an apology."
Again, Noel claimed that Liam breached a contract, lacked professionalism and showed disregard to his fans. How is this not damaging?
Past reputation is largely irrelevant."
1) Of course he could argue all three, but he needs to show actual loos of income, or a likelihood of loss of actual income. Not sure he could do that.
2) I've explained why I think it isn't damaging. You keep answering my answers with questions. I've argued why I don't think it changes Liam's professional reputation one bit. I don't think promoters, fans or anyone view him any differently.
3) Past reputation is absolutely relevant when assessing damages. Someone with a pristine reputation can often more easily prove actual injury to their reputation. The thing about many libel cases here--is that they result in plaintiff victories, but with no damages.
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Post by jaq515 on Aug 19, 2011 13:45:38 GMT -5
Of course I wouldn't sue, I was speaking relatively. Colleague X claiming that Colleague Y was faking a sickday isn't anywhere near as damaging as a high profile musician claiming that another high profile musician breached a lucrative contract, is it? I wasn't saying they are employed together - they were hired by the V Festival promoters and signed a contract to perform. I'm no expert in music contracts but I'd imagine the contract required them to turn up in a fit state. Noel claims that Liam didn't and therefore breached the contract. What part of this do people not understand? Why are people acting like Liam had some sort of viral or bacterial laryngitis that he couldn't have done anything about. Laryngitis simply means his vocal chords were inflamed it DOES NOT mean he was ill in a medical sense. Just that he wasn't fit to preform. Like ctmazin said. If you came in too hoarse to give a big presentation and had been observed by people he knows hooting, hollaring, drinking, and smoking at a football match the next before I know I would damn well be called into an office. He had a sick note. He's a singer by profession. So if a Dr has signed him off then he couldn't have performed. Again u.s and u.k law must be very different if you been signed off work by a dr. Your employer can not say any thing
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Post by ctmazin on Aug 19, 2011 13:47:28 GMT -5
"I'd take them to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal / constructive dismissal faster than you can say "pint of lager". If a doctor signs me off with laryngitis then they have no right whatsoever to comment on it."
True, but this would be far more complicated if you showed up for your presentation with laryngitis AND hungover.
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Post by stylishkids on Aug 19, 2011 13:47:56 GMT -5
English law allows actions for libel to be brought in the High Court for any published statements alleged to defame a named or identifiable individual or individuals in a manner that causes them loss in their trade or profession, or causes a reasonable person to think worse of them. To collect punitive damages, all individuals must prove actual malice. An allowable defense in England is: Fair comment on a matter of public interest - arguments made with an honest belief in their soundness on a matter of public interest (such as regarding official acts) are defendable against a defamation claim, even if such arguments are logically unsound; if a reasonable person could honestly entertain such an opinion, the statement is protected.There is no way Liam will win this. If Noel can prove that a reasonable person could believe that the cancellation had anything to do with a hangover when Liam had been out drinking the night then his statement is protected. I think theres a very good chance he'll win it. Theres many reasons why it can be proved why Liam's cancellation wasn't due to a hangover. 1. Liam had been in the business over 15 years at the time of the gig. Had he once cancelled any gig for a hangover? Why would Noel think he'd do it now? 2. The doctor who saw Liam could provide an account for seeing him on the day. It would probably say I'd guess that he wasn't hungover. I'm also sure that his lawyers and Liam would know that the doctor would say that the laryngitis hadn't occured due to excessive alcohol consumption. They wouldn't sue otherwise. 3. From looking at youtube clips of the previous night, I think anybody can see that Liam isn't hammered at that time. That means he'd have to get shitfaced from about half 11 onwards. If say theres proof that he's in bed by 3, I think it would be safe to assume that he didn't get in such a state that a hangover would be present at 10 the following night and that that hangover would stop him from performing. If all them points are valid, then why would Noel believe that he has cancelled the show due to an hangover? Even if say the last one can't be proved I see no reason why he can believe it. He may be able to form an opinion that he was heavily drunk the previous night (I doubt it tho). He may also be able to form an opinion that he was hungover the following day (I doubt it) but I see no reason he can form an opinion that the gig was cancelled due to an hangover. Somebody wrote those down as the causes of laryngitis. - acid reflux disease - allergies - bacterial or fungal infection - excessive coughing, smoking, or alcohol consumption - inflammation due to overuse of the vocal chords - use of inhaled corticosteroids for asthma treatment - viral infection If the doctor has said that it down to say an allergy or viral infection, I see no reason why he can entertain such an opinion that the doctor is lieing and it isn't. Noels some things but he isn't medical marvel. If he says the doctor is lieing then he's libelous to them too. You say there is no way Liam can win this but theres every chance. He's probably paid the best lawyers around and wouldn't have gone to such trouble, even appearing on the front page of the countrys biggest paper, if there was no chance he can win it. If it was as easy as you make out that Noel can win the case, then I think its safe to say his lawyers and management would know this and would have stopped Liam going ahead with it. Liam will win it.
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Post by jaq515 on Aug 19, 2011 13:50:00 GMT -5
"I'd take them to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal / constructive dismissal faster than you can say "pint of lager". If a doctor signs me off with laryngitis then they have no right whatsoever to comment on it." True, but this would be far more complicated if you showed up for your presentation with laryngitis AND hungover. No it wouldn't the sick note takes precident over the hangover.
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Post by gdforever on Aug 19, 2011 13:55:40 GMT -5
English law allows actions for libel to be brought in the High Court for any published statements alleged to defame a named or identifiable individual or individuals in a manner that causes them loss in their trade or profession, or causes a reasonable person to think worse of them. To collect punitive damages, all individuals must prove actual malice. An allowable defense in England is: Fair comment on a matter of public interest - arguments made with an honest belief in their soundness on a matter of public interest (such as regarding official acts) are defendable against a defamation claim, even if such arguments are logically unsound; if a reasonable person could honestly entertain such an opinion, the statement is protected.There is no way Liam will win this. If Noel can prove that a reasonable person could believe that the cancellation had anything to do with a hangover when Liam had been out drinking the night then his statement is protected. I think theres a very good chance he'll win it. Theres many reasons why it can be proved why Liam's cancellation wasn't due to a hangover. 1. Liam had been in the business over 15 years at the time of the gig. Had he once cancelled any gig for a hangover? Why would Noel think he'd do it now? 2. The doctor who saw Liam could provide an account for seeing him on the day. It would probably say I'd guess that he wasn't hungover. I'm also sure that his lawyers and Liam would know that the doctor would say that the laryngitis hadn't occured due to excessive alcohol consumption. They wouldn't sue otherwise. 3. From looking at youtube clips of the previous night, I think anybody can see that Liam isn't hammered at that time. That means he'd have to get shitfaced from about half 11 onwards. If say theres proof that he's in bed by 3, I think it would be safe to assume that he didn't get in such a state that a hangover would be present at 10 the following night and that that hangover would stop him from performing. If all them points are valid, then why would Noel believe that he has cancelled the show due to an hangover? Even if say the last one can't be proved I see no reason why he can believe it. He may be able to form an opinion that he was heavily drunk the previous night (I doubt it tho). He may also be able to form an opinion that he was hungover the following day (I doubt it) but I see no reason he can form an opinion that the gig was cancelled due to an hangover. Somebody wrote those down as the causes of laryngitis. - acid reflux disease - allergies - bacterial or fungal infection - excessive coughing, smoking, or alcohol consumption - inflammation due to overuse of the vocal chords - use of inhaled corticosteroids for asthma treatment - viral infection If the doctor has said that it down to say an allergy or viral infection, I see no reason why he can entertain such an opinion that the doctor is lieing and it isn't. Noels some things but he isn't medical marvel. If he says the doctor is lieing then he's libelous to them too. You say there is no way Liam can win this but theres every chance. He's probably paid the best lawyers around and wouldn't have gone to such trouble, even appearing on the front page of the countrys biggest paper, if there was no chance he can win it. If it was as easy as you make out that Noel can win the case, then I think its safe to say his lawyers and management would know this and would have stopped Liam going ahead with it. Liam will win it. I shouldn't have said there is now way he can win this. That ws an overstatement. I said before that either could win it. It's not a slam dunk for either. But regardless of who wins this is absurd and Liam and Noel shouldn't have bothered with the courts. Noel should have said the comment. Noel should have apologized or retracted it when asked. Liam should have just put out his own statement with the doctors note as proof to rebut if Noel wouldn't. There is no way I agree this should be clogging up the justice system though
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Post by ctmazin on Aug 19, 2011 13:56:56 GMT -5
Well, this may be where Canada and the UK depart.
If you showed up for work here with a bad hangover and laryngitis, with a doctor's note for the laryngitis, you could easily be subject to disciplinary action for showing up to work half-drunk. The doctor's note for the one doesn't cancel out your professional misconduct for the other.
Also, if you keep going to football games, get drunk and showing up to work with laryngitis and a dr's note, those doctor's notes are not going to do you a hell of a lot of good after a while if your larynigitis is getting in the way of your duties. Employer could easily show cause to fire you.
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Post by thuperthonic on Aug 19, 2011 13:56:57 GMT -5
Pretty sure Noel just meant that Liam got his "laryngitis" from drinking and smoking the night before.
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Post by revol on Aug 19, 2011 14:00:16 GMT -5
And, of course, Liam kept that doctors note (well, who doesn't keep them in case of some future lawsuits?) and of course each doctor keeps a file of every single case of laryngitis, especially from 2 years ago. Can you actually imagine this guy going to the court as an expert, because some rock star said something about his brother?
Apart from that, laryngitis (as we all know) can be caused by drinking and smoking - so, in terms of semantics, it can be just an alternative description for a massive hangover.
Someone can say: "No, it's not a hangover, I've been drinking and smoking, but it's just a migraine."
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Post by jaq515 on Aug 19, 2011 14:00:54 GMT -5
Well, this may be where Canada and the UK depart. If you showed up for work here with a bad hangover and laryngitis, with a doctor's note for the laryngitis, you could easily be subject to disciplinary action for showing up to work half-drunk. The doctor's note for the one doesn't cancel out your professional misconduct for the other. Also, if you keep going to football games, get drunk and showing up to work with laryngitis and a dr's note, those doctor's notes are not going to do you a hell of a lot of good after a while if your larynigitis is getting in the way of your duties. Employer could easily show cause to fire you. thats just getting silly now. having a hang over doesn't mean your half drunk? You can be sober but have a hang over? You are aware what a hangover is? Also the sick note would mean you can't work? So you wouldn't be 1/2 drunk at work as the sick note means your off work to make it relevant, like liam couldn't 'work' and do the V gig as he had a Dr's note
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Post by ctmazin on Aug 19, 2011 14:06:15 GMT -5
Substitute hungover for half-drunk. Whatever, you're arguing over semantics.
My point is that the note only covers the laryngitis. You are not being exempted from any misconduct that may be contributing to your absence/failure to perform at work.
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Post by Nyron Nosworthy on Aug 19, 2011 14:08:09 GMT -5
I shouldn't have said there is now way he can win this. That ws an overstatement. I said before that either could win it. It's not a slam dunk for either. But regardless of who wins this is absurd and Liam and Noel shouldn't have bothered with the courts. Noel should have said the comment. Noel should have apologized or retracted it when asked. Liam should have just put out his own statement with the doctors note as proof to rebut if Noel wouldn't. There is no way I agree this should be clogging up the justice system thoughThats the thing though, there is no way in a million years it will get that far. Very few libel cases do, without taking into account the shared management factor. It is a statement of intent from Liam to refute Noel's allegations in the most public way. Noel's original allegations were viewed and published in the British tabloid and world music press. Liam's initial denial wasn't, other than on a few Oasis fansites. By taking action, Liam's side of the story is now front page news and has provoked national interest. The ball is now in Noel's court, he either goes down the legal route and proves he cancelled because he was hungover, which would be nigh-on impossible if Liam was signed off with a doctors note, or he apologises, in which case Liam takes the moral highground and clears his reputation somewhat.
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