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Post by bathqueen on Jun 24, 2009 14:36:41 GMT -5
i love how he calls me art vandelay. he knows how to make me all fuzzy inside. So, when banrobber asks people to stop talkin about drugs cos some kid might see it and go do some, we all laugh at him, cos he actualy thinks that someone might get that influenced by people he doesnt know, who write on an oasis forum. BUT, when it comes to things that hurt our feelings, this person is immedialy a violent threat and needs to banned.... "Truth itself gets stronger during a fight with a Lie. Therefor, if the things which are banned are lies, they must be heard." - John Stuart Mill that's comparing apples with oranges. i haven't read the original post that caused that whole thing to happen, but hate speech is a hell of a lot different than talking about drugs. was that person telling people to take drugs or something? hurting someone's feelings is calling that person an asshole, prick, etc. attacking a group of people due to their religion, color, sexuality or whatever is an entirely different ballgame. that's a vicious attack. bankrobber believed that the statements by people here can turn children to drugaddicts. you believe that the statements by people here can turn children to racist people. So who are we to judge whats more important - apples or oranges?
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Post by NYR on Jun 24, 2009 15:11:35 GMT -5
i never said that racist comments will turn children to racism. however, hate speech can segue into hate crimes, and quite quickly, may i add.
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Post by bathqueen on Jun 25, 2009 3:53:26 GMT -5
i never said that racist comments will turn children to racism. however, hate speech can segue into hate crimes, and quite quickly, may i add. Ok, so your point is that hate speech can segue into hate crimes and bankrobbers point was that praising drugs can segue into drugdealing - but thats not really the point, We're talking about the fact that bankrobber was accused of being Unrealistic, where his basic claim was just like yours - what people write on this forum can lead to 'this & that', and therefor there should be some bounds on the forum.My point is, that just like bankrobbers claims were unrealistic, so does yours. Its very unlikely that someone would be THAT influenced by some posts on an oasis fans forum! and as an example to that, we all can see that THIS topic hasnt really raised any admiration to thechemist now has it? thechemist opinions are repulsive, yes. But we need to ask ourselfs, Do we want him to be unallowed to voice his opinions because they are a Violent threat and could leed to hate crimes, Or becuase they hurt our feelings and we just dont wanna listen to that kind of crap..?
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Post by NYR on Jun 25, 2009 11:43:46 GMT -5
i understand your point. however, i was saying HE might do something. nobody else. if he has enough hate in his heart to post on an oasis forum, which is quite an odd place to post that type of stuff, it's not completely out of the question.
i'm not calling for him to be banned for that. i'm calling for him to be banned for blatantly breaking the forum terms and rules by posting that type of content. attacking a group of people who could very well be members of this forum is completely unacceptable.
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Post by eva on Jun 25, 2009 13:54:49 GMT -5
there's a huge difference in someone saying "I'm/he/she's doing drugs" and "all muslims are ragheads and they're the religion of death"
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Post by bathqueen on Jun 28, 2009 3:39:44 GMT -5
So first we say this could lead to hate crimes then we regrass from that sayin his opinions are just insults at the end of the day, im just not suggestin he should be banned, im suggestin we just choose to ourselfs how to deal with this guy - ignoring him\confronting him\whatever...
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Post by MEANSTREAK on Jun 28, 2009 6:16:23 GMT -5
well, thechemist might be pretty far off the spectrum of sensibility but you can't deny that anti-semitism is pretty rife in the middle east.
anyway bathqueen is right simply banning a person because you don't like thier views isn't the best way to handle it. This ain't Iran.
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Post by halftheworld on Jun 28, 2009 9:01:39 GMT -5
well, thechemist might be pretty far off the spectrum of sensibility but you can't deny that anti-semitism is pretty rife in the middle east. anyway bathqueen is right simply banning a person because you don't like thier views isn't the best way to handle it. This ain't Iran. i think it's stupid to complain about anti-semitism in the middle east and being racist towards muslims at the same time. that's pathetic. cut the word "muslim" in chemists comments, replace it with"israel" instead and it could aswell be ahmadinedschads latest speech. this has got nothing to do with sensibility, this is outright racism.
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Post by MEANSTREAK on Jun 28, 2009 9:06:35 GMT -5
i think it's stupid to complain about anti-semitism in the middle east and being racist towards muslims at the same time. that's pathetic. cut the word "muslim" in chemists comments, replace it with"israel" instead and it could aswell be ahmadinedschads latest speech. this has got nothing to do with sensibility, this is outright racism. so the fact that thechemist is a muslim-hating racist excuses middle eastern anti-semitism? And is he really a racist? Does hating a religion make you racist? I bet he probably has not problem with Christians who are of Arab, Persian or African descent.
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Post by halftheworld on Jun 28, 2009 9:27:39 GMT -5
i think it's stupid to complain about anti-semitism in the middle east and being racist towards muslims at the same time. that's pathetic. cut the word "muslim" in chemists comments, replace it with"israel" instead and it could aswell be ahmadinedschads latest speech. this has got nothing to do with sensibility, this is outright racism. so the fact that thechemist is a muslim-hating racist excuses middle eastern anti-semitism? nope. i didn't write that. i just said it is pathetic to complain about muslims hating the jews while posting hate comments about the muslims. And is he really a racist? Does hating a religion make you racist? yep. i think, that e.g. anti semitism is a form of racism. and another thing to that forum banning: is it okay for you that imams like abu hamza can spread their hate among the people or do you think one should cut their freedom of speech like in iran?
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Post by MEANSTREAK on Jun 28, 2009 14:42:10 GMT -5
touché
As far as "hate speech" is concerned sure, people are gonna say what they like and it's up to the individual to listen and make the determination that the speaker or speakers are an idiot.
It's when hate speech crosses over into incitement, encouragement and active support of violence that the line is crossed. Who makes that determination? That can be a tough call, but Abu Hamza certainly is one who has crossed over that line.
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Post by halftheworld on Jun 28, 2009 20:55:58 GMT -5
touché As far as "hate speech" is concerned sure, people are gonna say what they like and it's up to the individual to listen and make the determination that the speaker or speakers are an idiot. It's when hate speech crosses over into incitement, encouragement and active support of violence that the line is crossed. Who makes that determination? That can be a tough call, but Abu Hamza certainly is one who has crossed over that line. that's what i was thinking about. of course we have freedom of speach in modern democracies, but the freedom of speech is not unlimited - and that's got nothing to do with iran or china. think about defamation. or another limitation is "incitement of the people". don't know wether that's part of the law in the us or the uk, but e.g. it is not allowed to deny the holocaust over here in germany (and austria, switzerland, liechtenstein...). if one thinks about freedom for 3 seconds, one will recognize the dilemma where freedom of one person limits freedom or rights of another. that's where state or a transcendent force (like a MOD ;D) has to intervene. and i think outright racism is one important reason. the difference to china is that they are cutting freedom of speech to maintain the power of the party - we are cutting freedom of speech to protect the freedom and the human rights of all citizens. and now some hightlights: And don't give me any crap about dead Iraqi's. They don't count. Muslims are killing each other. Always have, always will. It's what they do. Muslims are the ones that are the enemies. Wake up you bleeding heart liberal fucks. Put your hate where it belongs: With radical Islamists and their "moderate" enablers, not with the westerners that are trying to defend us from them. Good night, and God bless America. Now, Iranians aren't big on perpetrating terror (they've got Hezbolla for that), so let's even say ZERO Iranians blow themselves up with the infidels they kill. But a majority of the population AGREES wih this posturing and are willing to support it in SECRET ballots. Secret is the key in that you can't claim they fear retaliation from your tiny minority. They can kick this cretin out IN TOTAL SECRECY and will choose not to do so. oh, looks like we never supported terrorists? NOBODY within the "religion of peace" denounces the killing. And on the rare occasion that they do, it is followed by some variation of "but they deserved it. I can accept what Islam is. A religion of murder, opression, male domination and ignorance. There is no place for this "religion" in modern society. yeah, i know you like to post pictures about some nutjobs, too. but this first part is a blatant lie. And the elites have done an astounding job of rewriting the history of the crusades. Christians weren't killing Muslims simply because they were Muslims. They were killing Muslims to defend themselves against a horde of barbarians that were slaughtering them with impunity. Islam was a religion of death from DAY ONE and it continues to this day. sorry meanstreak, i defend freedom and human rights like fuck (and we often argued about cutting someones rights...) and i have a problem with many things justified with the koran, but that goes to far!
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Post by NYR on Jun 28, 2009 21:00:58 GMT -5
here's the million dollar question: where do you draw the line between what is free speech and what isn't?
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Post by halftheworld on Jun 28, 2009 22:54:39 GMT -5
here's the million dollar question: where do you draw the line between what is free speech and what isn't? tough, but in this case it is pretty obvious.
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Post by bathqueen on Jun 29, 2009 2:05:22 GMT -5
here's the million dollar question: where do you draw the line between what is free speech and what isn't? For instance, from the top of my head..- Between some Bored kid who talks bullshit on an oasis fan forum and Some bored kid who organize people to go burn down a mosque. (So basicly, yeah, im just sayin Again, that thechemist has no affect exept from upsettin us, which is not a good enough reason to shut him up.)
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Post by NYR on Jun 29, 2009 9:29:26 GMT -5
here's the million dollar question: where do you draw the line between what is free speech and what isn't? For instance, from the top of my head..- Between some Bored kid who talks bullshit on an oasis fan forum and Some bored kid who organize people to go burn down a mosque. (So basicly, yeah, im just sayin Again, that thechemist has no affect exept from upsettin us, which is not a good enough reason to shut him up.) but this forum doesn't have free speech. if it had free speech, then people wouldn't be banned for spamming, verbal attacks would be more prominent, etc. this guy broke the rules by continuing to post racist material, even after warnings. i quote: No. Just go ahead and ban me. I'm cool with that. any member who makes others on this forum feel like they're unwanted due to their race, religion, sexual preference, etc should be kicked out. this forum doesn't need people like thechemist.
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Post by bathqueen on Jun 29, 2009 14:23:51 GMT -5
For instance, from the top of my head..- Between some Bored kid who talks bullshit on an oasis fan forum and Some bored kid who organize people to go burn down a mosque. (So basicly, yeah, im just sayin Again, that thechemist has no affect exept from upsettin us, which is not a good enough reason to shut him up.) but this forum doesn't have free speech. if it had free speech, then people wouldn't be banned for spamming, verbal attacks would be more prominent, etc. this guy broke the rules by continuing to post racist material, even after warnings. i quote: No. Just go ahead and ban me. I'm cool with that. any member who makes others on this forum feel like they're unwanted due to their race, religion, sexual preference, etc should be kicked out. this forum doesn't need people like thechemist. Well, maybe u make thechemist feel unwanted due to his opinions? according to u this forum doesnt need people like him, according to banrobber this forum doesnt need people who smoke Maryjane. Who are u, bankrobber, or me to decide who can stay and who can't? Im just sayin, that i Believe thechemist has earned the right to be ignored and earned the right to be called twisted minded, but still, i dont think hes done anything that he should be banned for.... We cant just go & kick out anyone whos opinion sickens us, we have the right to ignore him and we have the right to illuminate him as a horrible, prejudice, narrow minded person, isnt that enough?
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Post by halftheworld on Jun 29, 2009 20:36:37 GMT -5
but this forum doesn't have free speech. if it had free speech, then people wouldn't be banned for spamming, verbal attacks would be more prominent, etc. this guy broke the rules by continuing to post racist material, even after warnings. i quote: any member who makes others on this forum feel like they're unwanted due to their race, religion, sexual preference, etc should be kicked out. this forum doesn't need people like thechemist. Well, maybe u make thechemist feel unwanted due to his opinions? sorry bathqueen, i can't accept that. if i wrote over here: in my opinion the world would be better without all those niggers, jews... heil hitler... the holocaust never happened... and shit like this. that would be an opinion. but it is totally not acceptable!
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Post by bathqueen on Jun 30, 2009 3:17:55 GMT -5
Well, maybe u make thechemist feel unwanted due to his opinions? sorry bathqueen, i can't accept that. if i wrote over here: in my opinion the world would be better without all those niggers, jews... heil hitler... the holocaust never happened... and shit like this. that would be an opinion. but it is totally not acceptable! First of, i wrote more than 1 line there. second, i meant that ones opinion about what is not acceptable to SAY here, has yet to come to the situation where its should rule the other opinion. U say its not acceptable to deny the holocaust for instance, Noam Chomsky (not need to remind he is jewish) thought diffrently (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair). So whos right? u or chomsky?
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Post by NYR on Jun 30, 2009 11:29:53 GMT -5
sorry bathqueen, i can't accept that. if i wrote over here: in my opinion the world would be better without all those niggers, jews... heil hitler... the holocaust never happened... and shit like this. that would be an opinion. but it is totally not acceptable! First of, i wrote more than 1 line there. second, i meant that ones opinion about what is not acceptable to SAY here, has yet to come to the situation where its should rule the other opinion. U say its not acceptable to deny the holocaust for instance, Noam Chomsky (not need to remind he is jewish) thought diffrently (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair). So whos right? u or chomsky? who cares? it's irrelevant. you can think what you want. i'm not going to stop you, but you keep circling around this issue: he broke the forum rules. he attacked people of a particular race and religion. he brings nothing to this place but negativity and offensive attacks on people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. that's all there is to it.
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Post by bathqueen on Jun 30, 2009 14:59:02 GMT -5
First of, i wrote more than 1 line there. second, i meant that ones opinion about what is not acceptable to SAY here, has yet to come to the situation where its should rule the other opinion. U say its not acceptable to deny the holocaust for instance, Noam Chomsky (not need to remind he is jewish) thought diffrently (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair). So whos right? u or chomsky? who cares? it's irrelevant. you can think what you want. i'm not going to stop you, but you keep circling around this issue: he broke the forum rules. he attacked people of a particular race and religion. he brings nothing to this place but negativity and offensive attacks on people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. that's all there is to it. Oh, He broke to forum rules? So thats why he should be banned? according to the forum rules, no putin official releases mp3, but i didnt see anyone demanding the the guy who posted a link to the verve album would be banned. So comeon, noone here really cherish "the forum rules" that much, unless when it touches him! What bothers me, is that u say he should be banned cos his posts would lead to hate crime, Then u say that he should be banned cos hes insultin, Now u say he should be banned cos he breaks the forum rules. Where at the end of day, Its obvious that u all just want him banned cos of his repulsive statements that u dont wanna hear, and u all just keep usin other excuses to get him banned. He is not a threat on the muslim world, nor he is a threat on this forums good writes\interesting topics, U just want him out cos u dont like his opinions and that, is wrong.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jun 30, 2009 15:28:42 GMT -5
This reminds me of the Sectioning Episode of Peep Show where everyone is trying to get each other sectioned.
I'm not taking sides in what's turning out to be a decent debate, but thought I'd add a bit of a pop culture analogy.
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Post by thechemist on Jul 2, 2009 11:56:48 GMT -5
Again, I'm sure some of the repulsive things said about George Bush in the mid-00's didn't have Art Vandelay too upset. Grow-up dude.
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Post by NYR on Jul 2, 2009 12:54:32 GMT -5
who cares? it's irrelevant. you can think what you want. i'm not going to stop you, but you keep circling around this issue: he broke the forum rules. he attacked people of a particular race and religion. he brings nothing to this place but negativity and offensive attacks on people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. that's all there is to it. Oh, He broke to forum rules? So thats why he should be banned? according to the forum rules, no putin official releases mp3, but i didnt see anyone demanding the the guy who posted a link to the verve album would be banned. So comeon, noone here really cherish "the forum rules" that much, unless when it touches him! What bothers me, is that u say he should be banned cos his posts would lead to hate crime, Then u say that he should be banned cos hes insultin, Now u say he should be banned cos he breaks the forum rules. Where at the end of day, Its obvious that u all just want him banned cos of his repulsive statements that u dont wanna hear, and u all just keep usin other excuses to get him banned. He is not a threat on the muslim world, nor he is a threat on this forums good writes\interesting topics, U just want him out cos u dont like his opinions and that, is wrong. 1. hate speech does quickly go to hate crimes, yes. anybody who holds feelings that strong could very well go that far. 2. he has insulted members of this forum. i quote: "I will furthermore not tolerate porn,slander, racism, or hurtful verbal attacks between forum members and will ban the party I feel is at fault without warning..." (that goes for the second and third part of your "u say" part.) maybe if you were the one being discriminated against, you'd feel differently. i hope that day never comes. i'm standing up for fellow human beings. i've seen what racism does to people... it killed over half of my family during the holocaust. (by christians, mind you, thechemist.) as for the verve uploader, i am more than positive that the mods told the user not to post officially released material on the forum. it's a warning. thechemist got a warning, too. he's still breaking the rules. as for the last part, think what you want. i don't care. though i don't like some people's opinions, as long as they respect the rules of this place, i have no problem with them. Again, I'm sure some of the repulsive things said about George Bush in the mid-00's didn't have Art Vandelay too upset. Grow-up dude. irrelevant. you're talking about a whole group of people... over a billion. bush is one politician.
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Post by bathqueen on Jul 3, 2009 8:07:01 GMT -5
1. hate speech does quickly go to hate crimes, yes. anybody who holds feelings that strong could very well go that far. 2. he has insulted members of this forum. i quote: "I will furthermore not tolerate porn,slander, racism, or hurtful verbal attacks between forum members and will ban the party I feel is at fault without warning..." (that goes for the second and third part of your "u say" part)
as for the verve uploader, i am more than positive that the mods told the user not to post officially released material on the forum. it's a warning. thechemist got a warning, too. he's still breaking the rules.
as for the last part, think what you want. i don't care. though i don't like some people's opinions, as long as they respect the rules of this place, i have no problem with them.
1. Yeah, it could go that far. or, not. 2. Well NL4E, protecter of reality and UGHF get insults for almost every topic they make,many people reply them back with things like "man on your last thread i thought u cant be more f**king dickhead than that, but uve surprised me". I must say I HAVE NEVER seen anyony so enthusiastic about banning those people, hmmm..wonder why.....?
Good for u, fighting for the rules when it comes to YOU.
Btw, why hasnt thechemist been banned yet..?
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