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Post by The Chief on Apr 21, 2023 5:59:01 GMT -5
Fucking hell, some of you lot are dramatic. The beginning of the end... really?
Let's look at all of this in another light. He records an album over the course of 3-4 years. He's excited about it. It's something new sonically but it is a style he's been building up to for years even in Oasis.
Then a trailer comes out with snippets of certain songs and some fans decide the record is bad even if they haven't heard it. They're already saying over and over that it's not as good as what you did before, that you lost the touch, that Oasis were better. Meanwhile Liam releases a record more reminicent of the Oasis sound and he sees that working well and his fans are now saying that Liam's record is better than the one he just released.
He's hurt and decides that he's pushing through with it. Publicly, he says he doesn't care and starts disappearing up his own ass. But the truth is and always has been that he does care. There's a reason why HC sounds like it does. SOTSOG was more experimental but it didn't sell. It wasn't what he thought Oasis fans would like. He gets involved with Death in Vegas, then fires them and get Dave Sardy. He starts working with The Amorphous Androgynous but then backs down and only releases the first NGHFB record. Then when he gets the guts to actually pull through, he gets panned by a big number of fans. He's in the promo and tour bubble for years and comforts himself in showing this strong but prickly persona and being contemptuous to the fans who don't like his new direction. And he pushes through with the EPs just to spite these fans. There's no excuse for his behavior, but I think this is where it came from.
Then it all stops and Covid forces him to stay home and do nothing. He has the time to calm down and reflect and fiddle with his guitar. He's not shunning WBTM, contary to the other examples cited above, but he accepts that it wasn't for everyone. So he goes back to what he's known for but says he could do that again later. Furthermore, he's got his own studio now which means he can record anything he comes up with quickly just like he like and we all know what comes out of him the easiest are songs à la Easy Now.
I think, this is the most mature we've seen him in a while and frankly it's good to read and see his head's out of his arse now.
The sad thing is that some people are already saying it's a bad record because of the songs he already released. It's not going to be as upbeat and positive as his previous records were and we all know why. Most music that will come out in the next years will be like that because the years of Covid were sad and dreadful. Come On You Know is the first Liam record I didn't buy. It's boring. But I waited until the record came out to decide that. Maybe Council Skies will also be boring. But let's give it a chance to exist as a record before we decide if it is.
But the beginning of the end? That's just ridiculous.
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Post by Lennon2217 on Apr 21, 2023 6:01:37 GMT -5
I love how the narrative by Noel, media and fans is that MOON was too experimental or whatever. It’s actually extremely straight forward. What it does contain is the best production of Noel’s songs in 25+ years. Something Oasis badly needed 2002-2008.
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Post by The Escapist on Apr 21, 2023 6:01:45 GMT -5
I can't say Council Skies is a bad record, but I can say that we've heard pretty much half the album already and nothing on there is giving me any real reasons for positivity. People talk about melodies being more important than production flourishes, but forget that a chorus like the one in this tune for me flies higher than anything we're getting from Noel at the moment. 'Cos all! The roads! I run are comin' back to youuuuuu...
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Post by The Escapist on Apr 21, 2023 6:06:05 GMT -5
I love how the narrative by Noel, media and fans is that MOON was too experimental or whatever. It’s actually extremely straight forward. What it does contain is the best production of Noel’s songs in 25+ years. Something Oasis badly needed 2002-2008. Listening to WBTM and going to the likes of Easy Now is so soul-crushing. Listen to those rattling drums in Beautiful World, the guitars, the sumptuous basslines and the propulsive sound! Then it feels like you go back to 2003 and it's nothing but mushy instrumentals, lifeless drums, cliched strings. 2017 was a big creative peak for Noel; David Holmes was the ideal partner-in-crime. There's a melancholy to it now, though, suspecting that the passionate colour of that era isn't coming back.
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Post by Supersonic on Apr 21, 2023 6:07:23 GMT -5
I love how the narrative by Noel, media and fans is that MOON was too experimental or whatever. It’s actually extremely straight forward. What it does contain is the best production of Noel’s songs in 25+ years. Something Oasis badly needed 2002-2008. Listening to WBTM and going to the likes of Easy Now is so soul-crushing. Listen to those rattling drums in Beautiful World, the rich guitars, the sumptuous basslines and the energetic sound! Then it feels like you go back to 2003 and it's nothing but mushy instrumentals, lifeless drums, cliched strings. 2017 was a massive creative peak for Noel and his sound; David Holmes was the ideal partner-in-crime. There's a tint of melancholy to it now, though, suspecting that the passionate colour of that era isn't coming back. Noticed the exact same. listened to Council Skies, then I listened to If Love is The Law. The difference is Immense.
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Apr 21, 2023 6:23:25 GMT -5
I agree. For me that album marks the beginning of the end for Noel Name me a major songwriter that hasn't released an average or poor album. I think Dylan is the best ever but I could name at least three utter abominations he's put out and a few more lacklustre ones on top of that.
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Apr 21, 2023 6:35:38 GMT -5
That is possibly the worst motivation for writing music though. Fans didn't like it, they're too fickle to put any stock in. The best, by and large, write for themselves.
Odd how new albums put someone's back catalogue in perspective. Given what I've heard so far, WBTM is rising much higher in my estimation.
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Post by draper on Apr 21, 2023 6:57:08 GMT -5
I don't rate WBTM as his best work at all.
1) it contains only 8 real songs + 1 instrumental & 2 interludes 2) out of those 8 songs I only rate 3 as topsongs (beautiful world, man who built the moon, if love is the law)
Keep on reaching, be careful what you wish for, black and white sunshine. Does anyone really feel like listening to these songs? Are they so much better then what we get now?
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Post by The Escapist on Apr 21, 2023 6:57:36 GMT -5
I don't rate WBTM as his best work at all. 1) it contains only 8 real songs + 1 instrumental & 2 interludes 2) out of those 8 songs I only rate 3 as topsongs (beautiful world, man who built the moon, if love is the law) Keep on reaching, be careful what you wish for, black and white sunshine. Does anyone really feel like listening to these songs? Are they so much better then what we get now? Yes. And yes again.
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Post by draper on Apr 21, 2023 6:59:41 GMT -5
I don't rate WBTM as his best work at all. 1) it contains only 8 real songs + 1 instrumental & 2 interludes 2) out of those 8 songs I only rate 3 as topsongs (beautiful world, man who built the moon, if love is the law) Keep on reaching, be careful what you wish for, black and white sunshine. Does anyone really feel like listening to these songs? Are they so much better then what we get now? Yes. And yes again. Well ok, as they say 'des goûts et des couleurs on ne discute pas' Just giving my personal opinion here.
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Post by AubreyOasis on Apr 21, 2023 9:35:32 GMT -5
I don't rate WBTM as his best work at all. 1) it contains only 8 real songs + 1 instrumental & 2 interludes 2) out of those 8 songs I only rate 3 as topsongs (beautiful world, man who built the moon, if love is the law) Keep on reaching, be careful what you wish for, black and white sunshine. Does anyone really feel like listening to these songs? Are they so much better then what we get now? I both agree and disagree. From a melodic point of view, the first two albums have better melodies (some would say "better songs" but I don't think songs are just melodies and lyrics). But the album that I find more exciting and the one that to this day I keep listening to from start to end is WBTM. AWell, ok I start on track 2 (fucking bellring) and skip the interludes But of course, as you say, this is only personal taste. And I also think the first 2 albums are very good
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Post by glider on Apr 21, 2023 10:25:32 GMT -5
I don't rate WBTM as his best work at all. 1) it contains only 8 real songs + 1 instrumental & 2 interludes 2) out of those 8 songs I only rate 3 as topsongs (beautiful world, man who built the moon, if love is the law) Keep on reaching, be careful what you wish for, black and white sunshine. Does anyone really feel like listening to these songs? Are they so much better then what we get now? Yes. And yes again. Most underrated song on the record I think.
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Post by glider on Apr 21, 2023 10:32:54 GMT -5
The whole "cosmic pop" era came crashing down I believe when he wasn't actively working with Holmes on those EPs. He was on his own for those and it showed because outside of This Is The Place, there was nothing really interesting that came out of them, and some of that material was amongst the most dull he's ever done (Wandering Star...).
There was no one there in the studio to challenge him like during the 'Moon' sessions, and he was just keeping up with appearances and straight up lying to himself and the fans he really wanted to have creative ambition. I expected better from him to be honest.
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Post by The Escapist on Apr 21, 2023 10:35:47 GMT -5
The whole "cosmic pop" era came crashing down I believe when he wasn't actively working with Holmes on those EPs. He was on his own for those and it showed because outside of This Is The Place, there was nothing really interesting that came out of them, and some of that material was amongst the most dull he's ever done (Wandering Star...). There was no one there in the studio to challenge him like during the 'Moon' sessions, and he was just keeping up with appearances and straight up lying to himself and the fans he really wanted to have creative ambition. I expected better from him tbh. 100%. The "Cosmic Pop" sound wasn't just about synths and drum loops or whatever, it was the sense of blast-the-doors-down ambition that David Holmes gave to Noel; the shove to throw himself into new sounds and structures, to catch old tricks arising, to blast the noise up so that the records carry all the colour and excitement of the recording philosophy. All of that was gone with the EPs. And all it left was some limp basslines, some mid-tempo quasi-dance, and shite like Wandering Star. (Okay, I love A Dream is All I Need, but still.)
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Post by captaincrankshaft on Apr 21, 2023 10:38:58 GMT -5
I always have a little chuckle to myself when Noel calls WBTM ‘far out’. There is nothing ‘far out’ about that album. It’s just full of shit songs in my opinion. I listen to much more far out music than that steaming pile of shite.
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Post by glider on Apr 21, 2023 10:40:43 GMT -5
The whole "cosmic pop" era came crashing down I believe when he wasn't actively working with Holmes on those EPs. He was on his own for those and it showed because outside of This Is The Place, there was nothing really interesting that came out of them, and some of that material was amongst the most dull he's ever done (Wandering Star...). There was no one there in the studio to challenge him like during the 'Moon' sessions, and he was just keeping up with appearances and straight up lying to himself and the fans he really wanted to have creative ambition. I expected better from him tbh. 100%. The "Cosmic Pop" sound wasn't just about synths and drum loops or whatever, it was the sense of blast-the-doors-down ambition that David Holmes gave to Noel; the shove to throw himself into new sounds and structures, to catch old tricks arising, to blast the noise up so that the records carry all the colour and excitement of the recording philosophy. All of that was gone with the EPs. And all it left was some limp basslines, some mid-tempo quasi-dance, and shite like Wandering Star. (Okay, I love A Dream is All I Need, but still.) I still remember when I first heard Fort Knox. It was a nuclear explosion of sound and ambition as you put it. A breath of fresh air that I can't help but feel we'll never get again.
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Post by LightsOffInside on Apr 21, 2023 10:44:12 GMT -5
I'm split on WBTM.
It has some of his best work, but also some of his worst. The first half is gold (but Fort Knox is overrated IMO), but the second half to me is all bland (except for TMWBTM).
Songs like Be Careful What You Wish For, Love Is The Law, and B&W Sunshine (the melody for this one particularly is garbage), are among his most unenjoyable songs to me, I genuinely can't enjoy them. Personally, the new songs shit all over those 3 alone, for me anyway. And the two instrumentals make this album feel half baked.
On the other hand, She Taught Me To Fly might be one of my favourite Noel song's of all time, I absolutely bloody love it.
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Post by The Escapist on Apr 21, 2023 10:45:38 GMT -5
If Love is the Law is an absolute banger.
Black and White Sunshine is like tripping in the middle of a funfair. Tonnes of fun.
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Post by Lennon2217 on Apr 21, 2023 10:46:29 GMT -5
Now if Noel ever manned up and released his AA album now that would be bonkers and split the fan base.
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Post by LightsOffInside on Apr 21, 2023 10:48:20 GMT -5
What the discussion between WBTM and Council Skies proves more than anything, is that there is no right answer, this is no "better or worse", there is just different tastes. And at the end of the day, all tastes are valid.
Across all of his solo albums, I can pick out a solid handful of songs from each album which I really enjoy. And that's good enough for me!
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Post by Lennon2217 on Apr 21, 2023 10:49:45 GMT -5
I could listen to songs like Holy Mountain, Beautiful World and She Taught Me How To Fly over and over and over again.
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Post by Lennon2217 on Apr 21, 2023 10:57:18 GMT -5
What the discussion between WBTM and Council Skies proves more than anything, is that there is no right answer, this is no "better or worse", there is just different tastes. And at the end of the day, all tastes are valid. Across all of his solo albums, I can pick out a solid handful of songs from each album which I really enjoy. And that's good enough for me! The irony is that no matter what Noel releases it’s gonna follow the same old routine. Album goes #1 and charts high, then fades. He will follow that up with a mid level size tour and outdoor dates.
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Post by The Escapist on Apr 21, 2023 11:08:20 GMT -5
I could listen to songs like Holy Mountain, Beautiful World and She Taught Me How To Fly over and over and over again. And The Man Who Built the Moon. And If Love is the Law. And Dead in the Water. Easy Now? Pretty Boy? Council Skies? Not so much. It feels like we're getting Noel's Heathen Chemistry; a safe, MOR retreat to gain back popularity points. The difference being that WBTM did well - there was no need to retreat! As others have said, it was Noel's defensive attitude that turned people off. And we're not even getting iconic singles to complete the comparison; Noel seems so uninspired here, rereleasing music, ripping himself off, etc. Ah, I'm being a miserable bastard, but I hate how Noel was exactly where he always longed to be in 2017, finally free of the post-Be-Here-Now fear of noise and fun, finally free of the need to write "anthems", finally able to release wild music and have it sell well, and he has now pissed it all back to square one by being such a defensive, condescending c*nt to his own fanbase. /rantover. I'll go and make some spaghetti. At least Dead to the World is nice.
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Post by Binary Sunset on Apr 21, 2023 11:23:39 GMT -5
I love how the narrative by Noel, media and fans is that MOON was too experimental or whatever. It’s actually extremely straight forward. What it does contain is the best production of Noel’s songs in 25+ years. Something Oasis badly needed 2002-2008. The production is fine. But the songs are lower quality. The production should serve the song, not the other way around. He hasn't found that balance of both yet (bar While the Song Remains the Same)
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Post by tiger40 on Apr 21, 2023 12:46:59 GMT -5
I agree. For me that album marks the beginning of the end for Noel you don't know that especially as we haven't even heard the full album yet. Besides I doubt very much that it marks the beginning of the end for Noel.
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