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Post by northernsky on Jul 26, 2011 13:33:29 GMT -5
I agree. He wouldn't be "showing" if this was a short story. But due to the limited space he has, as you have rightly pointed out, it's basically all he has room for. "Summertime was in bloom with the sweet smell of freshly cut grass infusing up to the stuffy nostrils of the children who were seen running innocently in the yard as beads of sweat dripped from their foreheads as the summer sun cast a devilish glow." That would be showing. But he doesn't exactly have room for that. Exactly! Although, to be fair, he COULD have had room for that if he had chosen. I mentioned Springsteen earlier because of all the lyricists I know of, he's the best at "showing" - and he manages to pull it off within the confines of a pop song. Take the song "Open All Night" in which he sings... I met Wanda when she was employed behind the counter at route 60 Bob's Big Boy Fried Chicken on the front seat, she's sittin' in my lap We're wipin' our fingers on a Texaco roadmap Whatever you think of Bruce, you can't deny that this guy is a master of "showing". In three measely lines he gives us the name of the girl, her former job, the food they're eating, the brand of chicken, where she's sitting, what they're wiping their fingers on, and even the BRAND of the roadmap! So if you admit that Noel's not that great of a lyricist, and that he doesn't REALLY find the time in his songs to "show" - then with all due respect, what was the point of the thread? To point out that he's marginally better at it than the BDI boys? Cause that's not really saying much is it? And even if it were, Andy's description of the sunlight shining "like diamonds on the water" is certainly a better example of "showing" than "step outside the summertime's in bloom (even if the diamonds on water simile has been used a million times before.) |
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Post by shoes222 on Jul 26, 2011 13:36:03 GMT -5
Well sure, technically ANY lyric is "telling" something. You can't LITERALLY "show" someone anything with words. What people mean by "showing" is being descriptive enough that it forms a concrete image in the mind of the listener. These lyrics succeed in "showing" because Lennon is cleverly descriptive, using comparisons we're all familiar with (the color of a tangerine for example) to describe the objects that would otherwise be bland and commonplace (trees, sky, eyes.) So really the old saying should be "show WHILE telling." Showing as as much about not telling as it is telling, it's not that Lennon describes everything, or even much of it. Liam isn't actually bad at this look at "I'm Outta Time", probably his most Lennon-esq moment; "Here's a song, it reminds me of when we were young, looking back at all the things we've done". Thats "showing" and he "shows" you by telling you what it means to him. Lyrically is the only time Liam gets close to Noels song writing personally. Really? Because I think Liam's lyrics are BY FAR the worst thing about his songwriting. They're so uninspired. Not to mention needlessly repetitive. |
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Post by lookingtothesky on Jul 26, 2011 13:36:22 GMT -5
You're right about the "show rather than tell" aspect of writing. But, Noel has something else that makes his songs on a much higher par than Liam or really many other artists. He's clever, exceptionally clever. Just take a tune like "The Turning." It's not everyone's favorite song, and some people probably don't even like it. But, it's an incredible song. During the guitar solo, the chords in the song almost reverse themselves, and in itself the song becomes its own 'turning.' Look up the chords, you'll see the swtich.
Now take Wonderwall, brilliant in many regards. The lyric "there are many things that I would like to say to you but I don't know how" became the line that every boy uses on a girl since it was written. But the song itself again fulfills this line. The song, wonderwall, is the way that the artist is trying to tell the girl how he feels. He even makes up this concept of a 'wonderwall,' which further adds to this "not knowing how to share my feelings" atmosphere.
One more. Stop Crying Your Heart Out is a favorite to some. But this is a brilliant song too. Noel's backing vocals have deep significance for understanding the song. Noel's backing vocals acts like a voice of conscious. "Stop Crying Your Heart Out" is not a command to another person, but to himself. Consider the line "Don't be scared... I'm not scared." The artist is talking to himself, and Noel is the voice inside the artist's head.
This is why Noel is a brilliant songwriter.
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Post by northernsky on Jul 26, 2011 13:39:27 GMT -5
ok, calm down. this isn't school. it's an Oasis-related forum, whilst interesting i think all points have been made. fuckers!!!!!!!!!!! Look, if a couple guys wanna have a somewhat intelligent conversation about music they enjoy, why can't you just let them do it? You don't have to take part in the conversation if you don't want. Kinda cool how that works, huh? Or maybe you and bonkers would feel more comfortable if we just threw in a few obligatory "fuck"s? |
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Post by northernsky on Jul 26, 2011 13:41:06 GMT -5
What tongueless ghost of sin crept through my curtains? Sailing on a sea of sweat on a stormy night Brilliant. I agree! Of course Noel has admitted that SOTSOG was the only time he ever really bothered with lyrics. |
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Post by shoes222 on Jul 26, 2011 13:41:55 GMT -5
I really disagree that Noel isn't a good lyricist. His lyrics may not be as descriptive as Bruce, northernsky, but that doesn't mean they're automatically not as good. It's all subjective isn't it? Noel thoroughly conveys the feeling of the song through his lyrics...and that's all good lyrics are, to me. Take Stop the Clocks for example. I like that most of the lyrics in that song are purposely vague. It's chilling. It makes your mind wander. The lyrics do a good job of making you question what is real and what isn't, so they're good lyrics.
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Post by northernsky on Jul 26, 2011 13:42:37 GMT -5
You're right about the "show rather than tell" aspect of writing. But, Noel has something else that makes his songs on a much higher par than Liam or really many other artists. He's clever, exceptionally clever. Just take a tune like "The Turning." It's not everyone's favorite song, and some people probably don't even like it. But, it's an incredible song. During the guitar solo, the chords in the song almost reverse themselves, and in itself the song becomes its own 'turning.' Look up the chords, you'll see the swtich. Now take Wonderwall, brilliant in many regards. The lyric "there are many things that I would like to say to you but I don't know how" became the line that every boy uses on a girl since it was written. But the song itself again fulfills this line. The song, wonderwall, is the way that the artist is trying to tell the girl how he feels. He even makes up this concept of a 'wonderwall,' which further adds to this "not knowing how to share my feelings" atmosphere. One more. Stop Crying Your Heart Out is a favorite to some. But this is a brilliant song too. Noel's backing vocals have deep significance for understanding the song. Noel's backing vocals acts like a voice of conscious. "Stop Crying Your Heart Out" is not a command to another person, but to himself. Consider the line "Don't be scared... I'm not scared." The artist is talking to himself, and Noel is the voice inside the artist's head. This is why Noel is a brilliant songwriter. All good points. Just different ones than is the subject of this thread. |
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Post by northernsky on Jul 26, 2011 13:44:23 GMT -5
I really disagree that Noel isn't a good lyricist. His lyrics may not be as descriptive as Bruce, northernsky, but that doesn't mean they're automatically not as good. It's all subjective isn't it? Noel thoroughly conveys the feeling of the song through his lyrics...and that's all good lyrics are, to me. Take Stop the Clocks for example. I like that most of the lyrics in that song are purposely vague. It's chilling. It makes your mind wander. The lyrics do a good job of making you question what is real and what isn't, so they're good lyrics. I never said I didn't like any of his lyrics. I just said that he doesn't really "invoke concrete images" as was argued in the initial post. That's just not really Noel's style. Like you said, his style is more vague, allowing the listener to come up with his/her OWN images. |
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Post by Hans Gruber on Jul 26, 2011 13:46:40 GMT -5
ok, calm down. this isn't school. it's an Oasis-related forum, whilst interesting i think all points have been made. fuckers!!!!!!!!!!! Look, if a couple guys wanna have a somewhat intelligent conversation about music they enjoy, why can't you just let them do it? You don't have to take part in the conversation if you don't want. Kinda cool how that works, huh? Or maybe you and bonkers would feel more comfortable if we just threw in a few obligatory "fuck"s? calm down, smart guy. don't talk down to me. 'wonderwall' analysis of a simple song or not, save it. fucker!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by shoes222 on Jul 26, 2011 13:49:10 GMT -5
I really disagree that Noel isn't a good lyricist. His lyrics may not be as descriptive as Bruce, northernsky, but that doesn't mean they're automatically not as good. It's all subjective isn't it? Noel thoroughly conveys the feeling of the song through his lyrics...and that's all good lyrics are, to me. Take Stop the Clocks for example. I like that most of the lyrics in that song are purposely vague. It's chilling. It makes your mind wander. The lyrics do a good job of making you question what is real and what isn't, so they're good lyrics. I never said I didn't like any of his lyrics. I just said that he doesn't really "invoke concrete images" as was argued in the initial post. That's just not really Noel's style. Like you said, his style is more vague, allowing the listener to come up with his/her OWN images. Looks like we agree then. I have no problem with you sir, good day. |
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Post by northernsky on Jul 26, 2011 13:49:35 GMT -5
calm down, smart guy. don't talk down to me. 'wonderwall' analysis of a simple song or not, save it. fucker!!!!!!!!! Hey, if you're gonna have a go at someone else, you gotta expect it to come back around. Oh, and I wasn't the one analyzing "Wonderwall." |
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Post by lookingtothesky on Jul 26, 2011 13:52:57 GMT -5
calm down, smart guy. don't talk down to me. 'wonderwall' analysis of a simple song or not, save it. fucker!!!!!!!!! Hey, if you're gonna have a go at someone else, you gotta expect it to come back around. Oh, and I wasn't the one analyzing "Wonderwall." That was me! Come at me bro! |
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Post by Hans Gruber on Jul 26, 2011 13:53:37 GMT -5
calm down, smart guy. don't talk down to me. 'wonderwall' analysis of a simple song or not, save it. fucker!!!!!!!!! Hey, if you're gonna have a go at someone else, you gotta expect it to come back around. Oh, and I wasn't the one analyzing "Wonderwall." you were over analyzing 'wonderwall' but that's neither here nor there. i don't mind you giving me a hard time in jolly jokingly manner but don't talk down to me, that's it. it's pretty simplistic. i didn't do it to you, don't do it to me. good things. |
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 26, 2011 14:05:42 GMT -5
For what it's worth, the band The Hold Steady do really well with "showy" lyrics. It's no coincidence they've been compared to the likes of Springsteen
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Post by Hans Gruber on Jul 26, 2011 14:09:30 GMT -5
Hey, if you're gonna have a go at someone else, you gotta expect it to come back around. Oh, and I wasn't the one analyzing "Wonderwall." That was me! Come at me bro! ok fine you. whichever one of you made the comment, it wasn't called for. good things |
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Post by ctmazin on Jul 26, 2011 14:09:55 GMT -5
Great thread--like reading the "over analysis".
I think two things make Noel an underrated lyricist. One goes hand in hand with the music, and is true of every great songwriter--his lyrics SOUND great, i.e. he puts the right syllables and sounds and phrasings in the right place regardless of their meaning. This, imho. is most of the battle when writing a pop song.
Second is that he has a way with a profound sounding phrase (whether this is showing or telling I don't know). Noel's best lines are right up there with the best wordsmiths....and he has a lot of them. Off the top of my head:
"maybe you're the same as me, we see things I'd never see"
"I can't tell you the way i feel because the way i feel is oh so new to me"
"Let me be the one who shines with you"
"please don't put your life in the hands of a rock and roll band who'll throw it all away"
"If you give me a minute, a man's got a limit, I can't get a life if my heart's not in it"
"every beginning has broken its promise"
"damn my education i cant find the words to say"
and many more
Noel's weaknesses are repitition (we all know about his favourite word fixation), inconsistency and laziness--which are really all the same thing when you think about it. Rarely does he write a full song of great lines. Even DLBIA has some lazy lines. Closest he's come to a complete set of lyrics are probably TIOBI and Slide Away.
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Post by shoes222 on Jul 26, 2011 14:11:19 GMT -5
and Gas fucking Panic!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by shoes222 on Jul 26, 2011 14:13:17 GMT -5
and Idler's dream, and several others I'm forgetting.
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Post by lookingtothesky on Jul 26, 2011 14:27:27 GMT -5
That was me! Come at me bro! ok fine you. whichever one of you made the comment, it wasn't called for. good things The comment analyzing wonderwall wasn't called for? Sorry, sir, I don't understand. Was my analysis unflattering? No offense was intended, my fuzzy little man peach. |
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 26, 2011 14:36:17 GMT -5
For the record, in no way did I say Noel was amazing at "showing", and nor did I say was he's the best. But he's better than Liam, and his lyrics tend to have some sort of emotional connection, meaning, and just over all depth to them. Whereas Liam's tends to be more of a placeholder for the melodies (think of all those "na nas" or "la las" or filler words like "song")
I actually think the biggest attribute to Noel's songwriting is how he uses both the music and lyrics in tandem to set the scene and mood, while connecting emotionally with the audience.
3RC, The Roller, etc are decent pop tunes in the sense that they sound ok, but that's about it. There's no emotional draw to them. Whereas with Noel, he really makes you feel the story he's trying to portray. And he does it time and time again: Where Did It All Go Wrong, Gas Panic, WPTWOTOMS, TIOBI, POTQ.....I actually think POTQ is the best example of this. Great song, that.
He's able to detail arrogant exuberance about being young and hopeful (most of DM), the fear (Gas Panic), despair (WDIAGW, HTWA), hopelessness (FD, POTQ), indifference (TIOBI), hopefulness (Stay Young, Talk Tonight, LF). It's a real asset.
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Post by Hans Gruber on Jul 26, 2011 14:39:36 GMT -5
ok fine you. whichever one of you made the comment, it wasn't called for. good things The comment analyzing wonderwall wasn't called for? Sorry, sir, I don't understand. Was my analysis unflattering? No offense was intended, my fuzzy little man peach. i'm actually hairy like a fucking animal, unibrow and all. ok, the over-analysis comment of 'wonderwall' wasn't called for. i thought you were the other guy, same kinda name, kinda saying the same thing, things got crazy. i appreciate analytical minds, i have one too, kind of at least, i try to block it out, if i didn't i'd go crazier than i already am but yeah. i try not to talk down to people here, at least i try. and, i at least try not to act smarter than others, or pretentious, patronize..'fuzzy little peach man' has that ring but yeah. anyway, God bless. |
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Post by lookingtothesky on Jul 26, 2011 14:45:41 GMT -5
The comment analyzing wonderwall wasn't called for? Sorry, sir, I don't understand. Was my analysis unflattering? No offense was intended, my fuzzy little man peach. i'm actually hairy like a fucking animal, unibrow and all. ok, the over-analysis comment of 'wonderwall' wasn't called for. i thought you were the other guy, same kinda name, kinda saying the same thing, things got crazy. i appreciate analytical minds, i have one too, kind of at least, i try to block it out, if i didn't i'd go crazier than i already am but yeah. i try not to talk down to people here, at least i try. and, i at least try not to act smarter than others, or pretentious..'fuzzy little peach man' has that ring but yeah. anyway, God bless. I didn't write any comments to insult anyone's intelligence. Nor would I waste my time talking down to someone on an internet forum. I'm here for the music and only the music. 'fuzzy little man peach' is a quote from that skit "Old Greg." But remember: you cannot run from your own madness. |
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Post by Hans Gruber on Jul 26, 2011 14:49:41 GMT -5
i'm actually hairy like a fucking animal, unibrow and all. ok, the over-analysis comment of 'wonderwall' wasn't called for. i thought you were the other guy, same kinda name, kinda saying the same thing, things got crazy. i appreciate analytical minds, i have one too, kind of at least, i try to block it out, if i didn't i'd go crazier than i already am but yeah. i try not to talk down to people here, at least i try. and, i at least try not to act smarter than others, or pretentious..'fuzzy little peach man' has that ring but yeah. anyway, God bless. I didn't write any comments to insult anyone's intelligence. Nor would I waste my time talking down to someone on an internet forum. I'm here for the music and only the music. 'fuzzy little man peach' is a quote from that skit "Old Greg." But remember: you cannot run from your own madness. i know you didn't insult anyone's inteligence, i thought we cleared that up? 'fuzzy little peach man' seemed condescending but you explained yourself, it's ok. and, i can run really fast and i'm gonna keep running, at least for now. good things. |
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Post by AKA... Frozen Eggroll on Jul 26, 2011 14:53:13 GMT -5
I like music.
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Post by lookingtothesky on Jul 26, 2011 14:53:41 GMT -5
Good things, indeed  |
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