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Post by Mario on Nov 8, 2009 11:50:41 GMT -5
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Post by NYR on Nov 8, 2009 14:52:39 GMT -5
i really find it disingenuous that no matter what israel does or does not do, they are always the bad guys. they get bombed and let gaza be, they are showing weakness and cowardice, they retaliate and are thought of committing war crimes. but gaza sent bombs and rockets to israel nearly every single day, and no one tells them to stop. they're in a humanitarian crisis. they play the victim each and how some of the world buys it every time is beyond me. imagine if baja california sends rockets to southern california. i guarantee you the u.s. would bomb them all the way back to the stone age. but that's self defense.
mario, i am a tolerant man, but i must tell you how ridiculous this is. each time israel tries to make peace, the palestinians want more. for them, the only way there will be peace is if israel was off the map. and even then, they would fight each other. (look at hamas vs. hezbollah.) their definition of peace is pure unequivocal power of the region. the jews have only one country, and the muslims have 98% of the middle east.
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Post by halftheworld on Nov 8, 2009 18:20:46 GMT -5
i really find it disingenuous that no matter what israel does or does not do, they are always the bad guys. ah, no NYR, this is just not the case. i understand why you feel this way (maybe because this video is crap!!!! times ten.) but truly: it is not like israel always being the bad guy! each time israel tries to make peace, the palestinians want more. for what i don't understand is: why do some radicals continue to start new settlements? why? i just don't get it.
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Post by NYR on Nov 9, 2009 2:32:16 GMT -5
what i don't understand is: why do some radicals continue to start new settlements? why? i just don't get it. i don't get it either. they are stalling the peace process and are making israel's critics squeal with joy because they have one more thing to complain about. and yes, israel is always the bad guy. of course, they're not perfect. nobody is. however, they're the most free country in the middle east. they give equal rights to all citizens, including the right to vote. while there may be discrimination there against non-jews, how little there is pales in comparison to places such as saudi arabia, which bans all public ritual that is not muslim. to make israel out as these evil psycho murderers makes whoever is saying or insinuating it look ridiculously stupid. i must ask you, halftheworld. you are a smart guy and pretty aware with the world around you. before israel's attacks on gaza, did you hear anybody go up in arms about the rocket attacks being sent into israel during a so-called truce? if so, i'm pretty sure they were few and far between. but as soon as the first israeli bomb was sent into gaza, all everybody heard was about how bad israel is. they are a bunch of hypocrites who act like they care about justice and human rights. but if human rights really interest them, why they were silent all these years? they liken their situation to apartheid, but if that's the case, where's their mandela? sixty years on and nothing. they only "worry" about human rights only when they can blame israel and jews zionists.
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Post by Jazzvi on Nov 18, 2009 6:11:22 GMT -5
Israel gets 6.8 million dollars a day from the US? Interesting video...
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Post by bathqueen on Nov 19, 2009 3:07:16 GMT -5
i really find it disingenuous that no matter what israel does or does not do, they are always the bad guys. they get bombed and let gaza be, they are showing weakness and cowardice, they retaliate and are thought of committing war crimes. but gaza sent bombs and rockets to israel nearly every single day, and no one tells them to stop. they're in a humanitarian crisis. they play the victim each and how some of the world buys it every time is beyond me. imagine if baja california sends rockets to southern california. i guarantee you the u.s. would bomb them all the way back to the stone age. but that's self defense. mario, i am a tolerant man, but i must tell you how ridiculous this is. each time israel tries to make peace, the palestinians want more. for them, the only way there will be peace is if israel was off the map. and even then, they would fight each other. (look at hamas vs. hezbollah.) their definition of peace is pure unequivocal power of the region. the jews have only one country, and the muslims have 98% of the middle east. Ofcourse Israel is always the bad guy. WHY? because u can have expectations from israel! Israel is a solid country, with a solid army, a solid government and a solid justice system. And the hamas? they are f*cking garilla! how can u come with arguments to a garilla?? + The damage caused to gaza in one month a year ago, is bigger than damage gaza caused to israel over SIX years! what i don't understand is: why do some radicals continue to start new settlements? why? i just don't get it. as soon as the first israeli bomb was sent into gaza, all everybody heard was about how bad israel is. The "bombs" which come from Gaza are metal pipes with fuel that just go towards israel and in the worst case kill one person.. The bombs which israel use on gaza, are either phosphorus bombs (which are not allowed to use ANYWHERE) or just your average huge bombs that can wipe out a complete neighborhood The only one who is stalling the peace process is Benyamin Netanyahu, who refuses to even talk about jerusalem. Why should one bother to come & talk when before the conversations started he was already limited?
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Post by NYR on Nov 19, 2009 4:30:26 GMT -5
Ofcourse Israel is always the bad guy. WHY? because u can have expectations from israel! Israel is a solid country, with a solid army, a solid government and a solid justice system. And the hamas? they are f*cking garilla! how can u come with arguments to a garilla?? + The damage caused to gaza in one month a year ago, is bigger than damage gaza caused to israel over SIX years! i have two questions. 1. if the palestinians are in complete chaos then how can you expect them to change if they ever become an internationally recognized country? they are, as you said, guerillas. 2. you saying that the war on gaza's casualties are disproportionate merely insinuates that not enough israelis died to justify the war. how many israelis must die until they will be able to justifiably defend themselves? The "bombs" which come from Gaza are metal pipes with fuel that just go towards israel and in the worst case kill one person.. The bombs which israel use on gaza, are either phosphorus bombs (which are not allowed to use ANYWHERE) or just your average huge bombs that can wipe out a complete neighborhood The only one who is stalling the peace process is Benyamin Netanyahu, who refuses to even talk about jerusalem. Why should one bother to come & talk when before the conversations started he was already limited? these "quote unquote" bombs are bombs. do they blow up and kill people? if so, they're bombs. if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a fucking duck. it proves that this talk of "human rights" from anti-israeli people is full of shit. one exploding device killing one person is one too many. if mexico sent one bomb into the u.s., and if it didn't even kill someone, we would probably send over a hundred bombs in retaliation. i agree that netanyahu is a crazy bastard (his allowing the new settlements is proof of that). however, when a group of people vote a terrorist organization that's devoted to killing israel, what is israel to do? flash the peace sign? also, israel will not go back to the pre-1967 borders, which is justified. they've already given up pieces of land (including gaza and the west bank) many times in the past, but apparently it's not enough. israel should not have used phosphorus. you're absolutely right about that. however, to single israel out as the only ones to commit war crimes in this decades-long conflict is wrong and disingenuous.
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Post by bathqueen on Nov 19, 2009 7:04:56 GMT -5
Well first off, "gaza's casualties are disproportionate merely insinuates" How do u expect an israeli to understand this? I have to open the dictionary now, next time ill answer in yiddish so youll know how i feel Now, 1. How can i expect the phalestinians to change? Easily. Hamas does not represent them all. Most of them have stated many times that they would sattle for a palestinian country in the west bank. The moment theyll get it, im sure that the amount of palestinians who want ALL of israel would be equal to the amount of Jews who want all of israel = A radical minority which no ones really gives a shit about. 2. Ive never said not enough israelis died. i said that way too many Gaza citizens died. "do they blow up and kill people? if so, they're bombs." So we can strike an Nuclear in respons to kasam? Whats the difference? A bomb is a bomb. "if mexico sent one bomb into the u.s., and if it didn't even kill someone, we would probably send over a hundred bombs in retaliation." I really don't care about any hypocrity from the US. -I- expect my government, part of them are second generation to holocaust survivers, NOT to response in such a destructive way. The way we acted in Gaza COULDVE been different. It COULDVE been more focused on the real criminals. But it wasnt. Cos bombing everybody is just easier. "however, when a group of people vote a terrorist organization that's devoted to killing israel, what is israel to do?" Israel is the only one to blame for more people voting for terrorists. Just like everybody here votes for the right wing after attacks, Everybody there votes for the right wing after attacks. Do not forget, a little bit before we got israel, there were basicly 2 jewish Movements here, the one who talked, and the one who used violence towards the british - terrorist acording to every book. Ofcourse that when we got the land, the Talking movement became the government and the Terrorists were pushed aside. But what if we couldnt get to an agreement with the british? What if the british refuse to give us what we wanted? what do u think wouldve happend than? What movement would get stronger? Thats the only difference between us and the palestinians. We got what we wanted, so our terrorists became unnecesery. They, still havent got what they want. So yeah, when we have the upper hand, the complaints should come to us, not the the people who dont even have a real country to adress for.
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Post by NYR on Nov 19, 2009 16:34:02 GMT -5
Well first off, "gaza's casualties are disproportionate merely insinuates" How do u expect an israeli to understand this? I have to open the dictionary now, next time ill answer in yiddish so youll know how i feel Now, 1. How can i expect the phalestinians to change? Easily. Hamas does not represent them all. Most of them have stated many times that they would sattle for a palestinian country in the west bank. The moment theyll get it, im sure that the amount of palestinians who want ALL of israel would be equal to the amount of Jews who want all of israel = A radical minority which no ones really gives a shit about. hamas may not represent them but they were voted into gaza. hezbollah may not represent lebanon but the lebanese government didn't do anything to stop them from going to war with israel a few years ago, either. another war which israel did not provoke. "if mexico sent one bomb into the u.s., and if it didn't even kill someone, we would probably send over a hundred bombs in retaliation." I really don't care about any hypocrity from the US. -I- expect my government, part of them are second generation to holocaust survivers, NOT to response in such a destructive way. The way we acted in Gaza COULDVE been different. It COULDVE been more focused on the real criminals. But it wasnt. Cos bombing everybody is just easier. it is, you're correct. however, when the enemy uses human shields, wears civilian clothes and lives among regular people, innocents are bound to die. it doesn't matter how amazing an army is. is it wrong? yes. however, if hamas wants to play dirty, then their people will be worse off from it. "however, when a group of people vote a terrorist organization that's devoted to killing israel, what is israel to do?" Israel is the only one to blame for more people voting for terrorists. Just like everybody here votes for the right wing after attacks, Everybody there votes for the right wing after attacks. Do not forget, a little bit before we got israel, there were basicly 2 jewish Movements here, the one who talked, and the one who used violence towards the british - terrorist acording to every book. Ofcourse that when we got the land, the Talking movement became the government and the Terrorists were pushed aside. But what if we couldnt get to an agreement with the british? What if the british refuse to give us what we wanted? what do u think wouldve happend than? What movement would get stronger? Thats the only difference between us and the palestinians. We got what we wanted, so our terrorists became unnecesery. They, still havent got what they want. So yeah, when we have the upper hand, the complaints should come to us, not the the people who dont even have a real country to adress for. you're right. israel always goes right wing after attacks. to their credit, the left wing tries to talk to them. they're the ones who make the deals on the most part. however, attacks still happen. you may be right that the attackers are of a minority, but they are still killing innocent civilians. that is absolutely inexcusable. however, the right wing does have its extremists too. look at yigal amir and the kach party. as for the british/zionist examples, pm david balfour's declaration for a jewish state pretty much sealed the deal. in 1911. the idf is an organized army with uniforms. hamas knows what their uniforms look like. yet they kill the innocents. meanwhile, israel cannot tell the difference between some regular joe schmo on the street between a hamas attacker. that's where the problem truly lies. so how should israel respond when their country is being bombed? even by homemade explosive devices (which most of the weapons are)? i think israel grossly mishandled the gaza war. the use of phosphorus is heinous and inexcusable. i am not saying israel is always the good guy, but they are usually the ones who respond to the provocations. therefore, they have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary. especially in an area where nearly everyone hates them. heaven forbid another war like this takes place, how should israel respond?
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Post by bathqueen on Nov 20, 2009 2:36:57 GMT -5
"hezbollah may not represent lebanon but the lebanese government didn't do anything to stop them from going to war with israel a few years ago, either. another war which israel did not provoke." What power does the lebanese government got?? Whenever someone stands up in that government against something there he gets murderd! The 2nd lebanon war, was the most ISRAELI PROVOKED war we ever witnessed! it was the brain child of 3 UNEXPERIENCED leades on their anger trip! when everyone declared cease-fire in 24 hours, the IDF just sent as many soldiers as it can to do as many harm in those 24 hours. No need to mention that those soldiers were easy targets. "when the enemy uses human shields, wears civilian clothes and lives among regular people, innocents are bound to die" I guess so. but WAS THAT REALLY THE CASE? Dr. Abu el-ayash, a genicologist who lived in gaza but worked in an israeli hospital, therefor he had some very good connections with israelis. During the operation in Gaza an israeli tank approached his house. He called an israeli reporter to help him. That reporter was at the moment live on TV, He took the call, Apologised in front of the nation and just left the studio at that moment to call the military and stop that tank. He did it very quickly and the tank did leave. One day later the tank came back and bombed Dr abu el-ayash house killing his daughters and nephew. The IDF said exectly what u say. That the hamas was under their house. However Dr abu el-ayash simply refused to accept that answer. "I wouldnt know if terrorists were in my own basement??" He claimed. He went with the help of the israeli press into a war against the IDF, until a few days later the IDF finaly addmited that The Dr was right, no one was there. And guess what? Every day former soldiers who were there, tell how they got got orders to bomb homes with a white flag. Don't be Naive, that operation wasnt really about finishing the hamas (as u can see, it only made them stronger), it was about revenge, it was about giving South israel what they wanted - Blood on the other side. "as for the british/zionist examples, pm david balfour's declaration for a jewish state pretty much sealed the deal. in 1911." No it didnt. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun"israel cannot tell the difference between some regular joe schmo on the street between a hamas attacker. that's where the problem truly lies." Youre not giving the information office very much credit here, but u should, its one of the most paranoid information office in the world. "therefore, they have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary. especially in an area where nearly everyone hates them. heaven forbid another war like this takes place, how should israel respond?" This is where they got u. Its obvious that israel should defend itself. The problem is, that israel keeps claiming it was Self defence, while it was clearly an attack. Where exectly was the defence here, if the operation started with missiles reaching 20 km from gaza, but ended with missiles 100 reacing km from gaza? That is not self defence! Self Defence is an anti-missiles weapon system. like a small "Patriot" missile. Thats Defence. and where is that? still in developments. And that is exectly why mr. Goldstone, the U.S and the U.N are RIGHT!. They won't allow israel to get away with it by saying " It was defence". Every logic person that was here or in gaza knows that defence wasnt in israels priority. And if it was, then why won't israel agree to be put to trial? Every attack was documented, If we were right, Why shouldnt we go with Goldstone and win the trial in front of the world? Because we know that Goldstone is right, so We'll just shout "How dare u question us after the Holocaust? It is beyond my dignity to even respect u with an answer", just like an average propogandic junior lawyer....
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Post by NYR on Nov 20, 2009 13:30:59 GMT -5
the lebanon war of '06 was a terrible war, just like every other. israel was provoked when hezbollah killed those border patrolmen and overreacted grossly. did terrible things happen? of course. it's part of a thousand year old war. the problem here is that, as you said, hezbollah has the lebanese government by the balls (i'm paraphrasing here). they're the ones being appeased. it's up to the people and their government to change that.
you are right about irgun and the history between the balfour declaration and the 1947 un vote. absolutely right. it's hard to remember the things people had to do in order to gain independence from the british. (see: most of the rest of the world that speaks english)
i think we've come to agreements, such as the fact that israel can defend itself. now, the argument is how.
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Post by bathqueen on Nov 20, 2009 14:02:39 GMT -5
i think we've come to agreements, such as the fact that israel can defend itself. now, the argument is how. Well, Israel can start treating their leachers with respect, instead of using them and then throwin them to the dogs (Dogs=the terrorists who seek to kill them for they are betrayders) Than, Israel can start focusin on the Anti-aircraft missiles, instead of the attack missiles. And obviously, negotiate on east Jerusalem. Its not really a protection, but it would lead to less support in those we need to be protected from.
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