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Post by The Chief on Jun 12, 2021 8:19:30 GMT -5
So much to unpack here. First I'm not painting people who have doubts as evil and certainly never said they wanted people to die. That's just ridiculous. Second, having concerns about what is in a vaccine is legitimate and even good. Again, I never said the opposite. Now, after raising said concerns and being explained over and over and over how it works, that most vaccine are harmless, that adverse effects are extremely rare and how they were able to test the vaccine properly and get it out quickly, then even if you're still worried, you should get the vaccine. That being said, the issue here is this: First, it's not a question of personal choice, it's a question of public health. When one's personal choice affects others especially in a way that could leave permanent damage or lead to death, then it's no longer a personal choice. That's true for wearing a mask as well, which we've known for months was about protecting others, not the one wearing it. He talks about that in this interview saying that if everyone wears a mask he's protected and they're protected so he doesn't have to wear one.
Which brings me to my second point. We should be free to decide what goes in our bodies until it becomes a question of public health and safety. The reason why we get the vaccine is to protect those who can't, like your sister. She has a legitimate reason to not get the vaccine as she's worried it could affect the baby. Fair enough. We can think of people with medical issues and so on. That's who we, as a society, need to protect. We get the vaccine because we need to protect ourselves and those who can't get the vaccine. Then, there's the slippery slope. If everyone thinks "Well I don't want it so I'm not getting it" what will happen? Or, if I go a bit less dramatic, say 50% of people in England don't get vaccinated ever because of the so-called personal choice? Then people keep getting sick and dying and the restrictions remain... Also, in certain cases, it should be mandatory. For instance, if you have a man suffering from psychosis who becomes a threat, then we would expect his antipsychotics to be mandatory to protect others. This is the same thing, it's just less obvious because we can't see the virus. But we need to make sure everything is done to protect society. Lastly, he's a rock star with influence. So what he says influences others. As such, he has a responsability to not influence people the wrong way. If he doesn't want the vaccine, then he needs to shut the fuck up about it and keep it for himself. In 1975, if Robert Plant didn't want a vaccine, we wouldn't have known. That's how it should be today. If you want to be a positive influence, go right ahead! Otherwise, shut it. It's not a question of opinion here. We're talking about public health and safety. I agree there on the bit in bold. But worth noting that the quote about the mask isn't from the latest interview. It's from last summer/autumn when he was on Matt Morgan's podcast. Every time he's been out and about lately he's been pictured in a mask. He can moan all he likes but he clearly wears one when he's supposed to. Well, the reason we get the vaccine is to protect ourselves as well. There's this thing that's been missed here. It doesn't actually stop transmission. What it does stop is serious illness and therefore death, in the vast majority of cases. It's not like a mask, which is more for protecting others than protecting yourself. The vaccine is about everybody protecting themselves and, in time, building up a herd immunity strategy that way. Me getting the vaccine doesn't make my sister safer because I could still transmit COVID even with the vaccine. So no, the vaccine is about looking out for yourself, first and foremost, and if everyone does that, it helps everyone out too. In certain jobs, I fully agree. If you are a medical professional or someone dealing with a public service then it should probably be mandatory. It's a choice to take a job like that at the end of the day so you are still having that 'freedom' (for lack of a better term) to do something; you just know that it comes withe the territory. I think Noel's just in his 'old man shouts at cloud' stage but he's not said people shouldn't get the vaccine, he just said he won't scream at people for not doing. Maybe that's as bad, I don't know, but it's similar to my thought on the whole situation. I don't like the masks either, but we all do it, and as I've said, any time NG has been pictured lately (when he's been in public indoors) he's been wearing a mask. Oh yeah, he's definitely in the 'old man shouts at cloud' stage. He didn't say people shouldn't get the vaccine but if you factor in all the crazies coming up with ludicrous reasons not to get the vaccine and you add someone with influence, it weighs in one's decision. As for the spread of the virus, according to many studies, it does reduce the risk of transmission, hence the herd immunity. I'm no virologist or scientist though, but that's my understanding. Nevertheless, vaccines have always been about protecting yourself and others, not just yourself. I'm not a fan of people berating others who don't wear masks or shame them on social media. That's just unacceptable. I do however have a huge problem with people having their heads up their asses too far to realize that one's actions have consequences on several people, especially potentially deadly or permanent. Noel isn't alone on a island which means every choice he makes can influence other people, whether he's a rock star or a plumber. If everyone decided "I'm not wearing a mask because I don't want to" or "personal freedoms" and all that horseshit, the pandemic would never end. If Noel said "I don't respect speed limits, it's my own personal freedom" I'd have the same issue with it. To me, they're the exact same thing. Drive 75 mph in a school zone, you might not hit a child, or you might hit a child and not hurt them or hurt them a bit and they'll recover or leave them paralyzed, or you might kill them... personal choices and freedoms stop when it has consequences on other people...
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Post by marianna on Jun 12, 2021 10:23:20 GMT -5
So much to unpack here. First I'm not painting people who have doubts as evil and certainly never said they wanted people to die. That's just ridiculous. Second, having concerns about what is in a vaccine is legitimate and even good. Again, I never said the opposite. Now, after raising said concerns and being explained over and over and over how it works, that most vaccine are harmless, that adverse effects are extremely rare and how they were able to test the vaccine properly and get it out quickly, then even if you're still worried, you should get the vaccine. That being said, the issue here is this: First, it's not a question of personal choice, it's a question of public health. When one's personal choice affects others especially in a way that could leave permanent damage or lead to death, then it's no longer a personal choice. That's true for wearing a mask as well, which we've known for months was about protecting others, not the one wearing it. He talks about that in this interview saying that if everyone wears a mask he's protected and they're protected so he doesn't have to wear one.
Which brings me to my second point. We should be free to decide what goes in our bodies until it becomes a question of public health and safety. The reason why we get the vaccine is to protect those who can't, like your sister. She has a legitimate reason to not get the vaccine as she's worried it could affect the baby. Fair enough. We can think of people with medical issues and so on. That's who we, as a society, need to protect. We get the vaccine because we need to protect ourselves and those who can't get the vaccine. Then, there's the slippery slope. If everyone thinks "Well I don't want it so I'm not getting it" what will happen? Or, if I go a bit less dramatic, say 50% of people in England don't get vaccinated ever because of the so-called personal choice? Then people keep getting sick and dying and the restrictions remain... Also, in certain cases, it should be mandatory. For instance, if you have a man suffering from psychosis who becomes a threat, then we would expect his antipsychotics to be mandatory to protect others. This is the same thing, it's just less obvious because we can't see the virus. But we need to make sure everything is done to protect society. Lastly, he's a rock star with influence. So what he says influences others. As such, he has a responsability to not influence people the wrong way. If he doesn't want the vaccine, then he needs to shut the fuck up about it and keep it for himself. In 1975, if Robert Plant didn't want a vaccine, we wouldn't have known. That's how it should be today. If you want to be a positive influence, go right ahead! Otherwise, shut it. It's not a question of opinion here. We're talking about public health and safety. I agree there on the bit in bold. But worth noting that the quote about the mask isn't from the latest interview. It's from last summer/autumn when he was on Matt Morgan's podcast. Every time he's been out and about lately he's been pictured in a mask. He can moan all he likes but he clearly wears one when he's supposed to. Well, the reason we get the vaccine is to protect ourselves as well. There's this thing that's been missed here. It doesn't actually stop transmission. What it does stop is serious illness and therefore death, in the vast majority of cases. It's not like a mask, which is more for protecting others than protecting yourself. The vaccine is about everybody protecting themselves and, in time, building up a herd immunity strategy that way. Me getting the vaccine doesn't make my sister safer because I could still transmit COVID even with the vaccine. So no, the vaccine is about looking out for yourself, first and foremost, and if everyone does that, it helps everyone out too. In certain jobs, I fully agree. If you are a medical professional or someone dealing with a public service then it should probably be mandatory. It's a choice to take a job like that at the end of the day so you are still having that 'freedom' (for lack of a better term) to do something; you just know that it comes withe the territory. I think Noel's just in his 'old man shouts at cloud' stage but he's not said people shouldn't get the vaccine, he just said he won't scream at people for not doing. Maybe that's as bad, I don't know, but it's similar to my thought on the whole situation. I don't like the masks either, but we all do it, and as I've said, any time NG has been pictured lately (when he's been in public indoors) he's been wearing a mask. I can globally understand and partially agree, problem being, if more than 70% of the population chooses not to have it, hence, no herd immununity, be prepared to wear masks forever, because you will still need to protect others. And, vírus circulation won't diminish enough to avoid new variants appearing at an important rate and someday, make vaccines ineffective. Plus, there are few non responders. People who are not protected even though they had the vaccines. Plus, a vaccine is not a shield. You reduce greatly the risk of developing severe disease, but it doesn't make it zero risk. I do think compulsory vaccination (for those who don't have a medical reason) is ethically debatable. It's not something beyond the realms of possibility if lack of voluntary uptake risks public safety. It's been done before, on democratic countries, for instance with tuberculosis patients, who had to have their pills under surveillance.
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Post by tiger40 on Jun 12, 2021 13:01:58 GMT -5
Let me say this again since you’re referring to the discussion you and I had — Liam didn’t say anything about the efficacy of vaccinations in that tweet and it is not the responsibility of a musician to give medical advice to the public. Furthermore, the extraordinarily minuscule amount of people legitimately reading Liam/Noel interviews or tweets for insight on a virus are mentally ill and incapable of making decisions related to the safety of society. There are 36,000 total members on this forum and we’re probably the biggest Oasis fans on the planet; how many people have you seen on here saying they were influenced by Liam/Noel in regard to getting vaccinated or wearing a mask (which even Dr. Fauci privately admitted in his emails had little to no impact on keeping people safe)? If you’re genuinely that concerned about their opinions on important societal issues, please start advocating for them to discuss all of the pressing inherent dangers to humanity as well. Telling people it's OK not to get vaccinated is in fact weighing in on the vaccine. He could just as well have said say nothing at all about it and he chose to say something about it. He's a big boy and can be responsible for his words. That's all. He has a considerable public profile (especially in England but also globally in countries with even bigger problems) and is an idol. Those are not really controversial facts. Your math is not correct. There are not 36,000 people posting on this forum. There are really maybe about 50 people who post here regularly, on say a daily or weekly basis as of June of 2021. It is mostly the same people every day, with slight shifts when it is mostly Noel or mostly Liam news. This has been a fairly pro-vaccination board over all and is not really a stan board (not sure if it ever was, doesn't seem to have been for many years at least), so I wouldn't expect the people who actually post here to be swayed by any Gallagher. But, as I mentioned in the other thread, I personally saw multiple people on twitter who said they wanted Liam's opinion and it mattered to them. These are young people who maybe don't read a lot or watch the news. They are not sure what to think and they look up to Liam. They want to be cool like him, and they're unsure if it's cool to get vaccinated. I don't know why it bothers you so much that their words might matter. I do not advocate for them to speak on anything, including on Covid-19 or vaccinations. They are free to speak on whatever they want and I am free to weigh in on what they say. That's how being a public figure works. If they want to speak out about climate change, or the West Bank or gun violence or nuclear proliferation or football leagues or whatever, they should do so. They certainly don't have to do so. But if they do speak about it, then their words carry weight. I couldn't put it better myself.
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Post by bt95 on Jun 12, 2021 13:42:59 GMT -5
I agree there on the bit in bold. But worth noting that the quote about the mask isn't from the latest interview. It's from last summer/autumn when he was on Matt Morgan's podcast. Every time he's been out and about lately he's been pictured in a mask. He can moan all he likes but he clearly wears one when he's supposed to. Well, the reason we get the vaccine is to protect ourselves as well. There's this thing that's been missed here. It doesn't actually stop transmission. What it does stop is serious illness and therefore death, in the vast majority of cases. It's not like a mask, which is more for protecting others than protecting yourself. The vaccine is about everybody protecting themselves and, in time, building up a herd immunity strategy that way. Me getting the vaccine doesn't make my sister safer because I could still transmit COVID even with the vaccine. So no, the vaccine is about looking out for yourself, first and foremost, and if everyone does that, it helps everyone out too. In certain jobs, I fully agree. If you are a medical professional or someone dealing with a public service then it should probably be mandatory. It's a choice to take a job like that at the end of the day so you are still having that 'freedom' (for lack of a better term) to do something; you just know that it comes withe the territory. I think Noel's just in his 'old man shouts at cloud' stage but he's not said people shouldn't get the vaccine, he just said he won't scream at people for not doing. Maybe that's as bad, I don't know, but it's similar to my thought on the whole situation. I don't like the masks either, but we all do it, and as I've said, any time NG has been pictured lately (when he's been in public indoors) he's been wearing a mask. I can globally understand and partially agree, problem being, if more than 70% of the population chooses not to have it, hence, no herd immununity, be prepared to wear masks forever, because you will still need to protect others. And, vírus circulation won't diminish enough to avoid new variants appearing at an important rate and someday, make vaccines ineffective. Plus, there are few non responders. People who are not protected even though they had the vaccines. Plus, a vaccine is not a shield. You reduce greatly the risk of developing severe disease, but it doesn't make it zero risk. I do think compulsory vaccination (for those who don't have a medical reason) is ethically debatable. It's not something beyond the realms of possibility if lack of voluntary uptake risks public safety. It's been done before, on democratic countries, for instance with tuberculosis patients, who had to have their pills under surveillance. I can't speak for other nations, but in the UK we don't have that issue. Uptake here has by and large being very good. There were concerns about my age group (25-30s) getting it but the other day when it was available the NHS booking system crashed as it was so busy, and pretty much everybody I know who hadn't previously had it are getting it (within my age group I mean).
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Post by His Royal Noelness on Jun 12, 2021 14:16:09 GMT -5
I can globally understand and partially agree, problem being, if more than 70% of the population chooses not to have it, hence, no herd immununity, be prepared to wear masks forever, because you will still need to protect others. And, vírus circulation won't diminish enough to avoid new variants appearing at an important rate and someday, make vaccines ineffective. Plus, there are few non responders. People who are not protected even though they had the vaccines. Plus, a vaccine is not a shield. You reduce greatly the risk of developing severe disease, but it doesn't make it zero risk. I do think compulsory vaccination (for those who don't have a medical reason) is ethically debatable. It's not something beyond the realms of possibility if lack of voluntary uptake risks public safety. It's been done before, on democratic countries, for instance with tuberculosis patients, who had to have their pills under surveillance. I can't speak for other nations, but in the UK we don't have that issue. Uptake here has by and large being very good. There were concerns about my age group (25-30s) getting it but the other day when it was available the NHS booking system crashed as it was so busy, and pretty much everybody I know who hadn't previously had it are getting it (within my age group I mean). Same here in Ireland. We’re expected to be ahead of the world average. I personally can’t wait to get mine.
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Post by marianna on Jun 12, 2021 14:16:14 GMT -5
I can globally understand and partially agree, problem being, if more than 70% of the population chooses not to have it, hence, no herd immununity, be prepared to wear masks forever, because you will still need to protect others. And, vírus circulation won't diminish enough to avoid new variants appearing at an important rate and someday, make vaccines ineffective. Plus, there are few non responders. People who are not protected even though they had the vaccines. Plus, a vaccine is not a shield. You reduce greatly the risk of developing severe disease, but it doesn't make it zero risk. I do think compulsory vaccination (for those who don't have a medical reason) is ethically debatable. It's not something beyond the realms of possibility if lack of voluntary uptake risks public safety. It's been done before, on democratic countries, for instance with tuberculosis patients, who had to have their pills under surveillance. I can't speak for other nations, but in the UK we don't have that issue. Uptake here has by and large being very good. There were concerns about my age group (25-30s) getting it but the other day when it was available the NHS booking system crashed as it was so busy, and pretty much everybody I know who hadn't previously had it are getting it (within my age group I mean). I just wanted to point out that despite the immense importance of individual freedom, there are issues where that is not an absolute value. Public health is one of those. It is debatable whether it is ethical to force someone to have a medical intervention against their will, but on the other hand, is it ethical for people to risk an entire population and the economic recovery, just because someone doesn't want it? Regarding the uptake in the UK,that's good news, but it will be worthless if herd immununity os not obtained globally. Mutations will carry on, elsewhere... If one of these mutations is more adapted, making the vaccines less effective, then goodbye herd immununity on the UK only, because sooner or later it will reach those shores. So, basically, to answer Noel's half joke regarding being exempted from wearing a mask for writing Wonderwall and DLBIA in the same week. No, you don't get to have that privilege. Nor Paul McCartney, nor Bob Dylan, nor Roger waters for the matter 😁. You have enough already. You don't get to play your part in risking global health.
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Post by girllikeabomb on Jun 12, 2021 16:33:17 GMT -5
Well, the reason we get the vaccine is to protect ourselves as well. There's this thing that's been missed here. It doesn't actually stop transmission. What it does stop is serious illness and therefore death, in the vast majority of cases. It's not like a mask, which is more for protecting others than protecting yourself. The vaccine is about everybody protecting themselves and, in time, building up a herd immunity strategy that way. Me getting the vaccine doesn't make my sister safer because I could still transmit COVID even with the vaccine. So no, the vaccine is about looking out for yourself, first and foremost, and if everyone does that, it helps everyone out too. In certain jobs, I fully agree. If you are a medical professional or someone dealing with a public service then it should probably be mandatory. It's a choice to take a job like that at the end of the day so you are still having that 'freedom' (for lack of a better term) to do something; you just know that it comes withe the territory. I think Noel's just in his 'old man shouts at cloud' stage but he's not said people shouldn't get the vaccine, he just said he won't scream at people for not doing. Maybe that's as bad, I don't know, but it's similar to my thought on the whole situation. I don't like the masks either, but we all do it, and as I've said, any time NG has been pictured lately (when he's been in public indoors) he's been wearing a mask. That's not entirely right so just want to clear that little bit up. The vaccine doesn't STOP transmission but it sure the heck slows it down. We're seeing that in action. What it specifically does is break the chains of transmission, and once they are broken it is much, much harder for the virus to get going again in vast numbers. That's why you see in a city like Los Angeles where we had ambulances driving around searching for open emergency beds just a few months ago, now the infection rate is incredibly low to the point that all restrictions are coming off--and people like me are back to work. (Here, unlike in England, we are seeing infection rates continue to decline, but we also used the two-shots separated by 3 weeks so most of our population has been fully vaccinated for many weeks.) Now, you may have heard in the beginning that they weren't sure if the vaccine slowed transmission. That was true. They did not know. But now we know that the vaccine does indeed slow transmission as well as significantly reducing personal risk of getting deathly ill. Nothing stops transmission completely. Not a mask, either. It depends on the situation. If a person with severe Covid were to spit directly in your face, you'd probably get Covid even if you were wearing a mask and quite possibly even if you're vaccinated. The viral load can be massive. But under most ordinary circumstances, both a mask and a vaccine help considerably. At this point, getting vaccinated makes the biggest difference. If you can't get the vaccine for health reasons, and granted some can't (though it's a small percentage), then it's best wear a mask until the infection rates come way down. I think one other thing that hasn't been said is that a global pandemic is about the least rock and roll thing that could ever happen. I get why it doesn't sit well with defiant types. But this is the time to hook into the "all you need is love" side of rock and roll.
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