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Post by Mogly on Jan 7, 2006 21:56:06 GMT -5
ROME, Italy (Reuters) -- Forget the U.S. debate over intelligent design versus evolution.
An Italian court is tackling Jesus -- and whether the Roman Catholic Church may be breaking the law by teaching that he existed 2,000 years ago.
The case pits against each other two men in their 70s, who are from the same central Italian town and even went to the same seminary school in their teenage years.
The defendant, Enrico Righi, went on to become a priest writing for the parish newspaper. The plaintiff, Luigi Cascioli, became a vocal atheist who, after years of legal wrangling, is set to get his day in court later this month.
"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression," Cascioli told Reuters.
Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona," or impersonation.
"The Church constructed Christ upon the personality of John of Gamala," Cascioli claimed, referring to the 1st century Jew who fought against the Roman army.
A court in Viterbo will hear from Righi, who has yet to be indicted, at a January 27 preliminary hearing meant to determine whether the case has enough merit to go forward.
"In my book, 'The Fable of Christ,' I present proof Jesus did not exist as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of Christ's existence," Cascioli said.
Speaking to Reuters, Righi, 76, sounded frustrated by the case and baffled as to why Cascioli -- who, like him, came from the town of Bagnoregio -- singled him out in his crusade against the Church.
"We're both from Bagnoregio, both of us. We were in seminary together. Then he took a different path and we didn't see each other anymore," Righi said.
"Since I'm a priest, and I write in the parish newspaper, he is now suing me because I 'trick' the people."
Righi claims there is plenty of evidence to support the existence of Jesus, including historical texts.
He also claims that justice is on his side. The judge presiding over the hearing has tried, repeatedly, to dismiss the case -- prompting appeals from Cascioli.
"Cascioli says he didn't exist. And I said that he did," he said. "The judge will decide if Christ exists or not."
Even Cascioli admits that the odds are against him, especially in Roman Catholic Italy.
"It would take a miracle to win," he joked.
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Post by feckarse on Jan 7, 2006 22:51:12 GMT -5
some chap called Jesus did exist, i firmly believe that
but he wasnt the fucking son of god, that sonny jim, is a bullshit story that never got sorted out
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Post by Mogly on Jan 7, 2006 22:56:02 GMT -5
yeah I don't believe that he was the son of God or many other things people believe about him but he did exist. this case could be seen from a different perspective and it's the bunch of unproven stuff Jesus was supposed to do and that are also fundamental in the Christian Church dogma
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Post by Dominic on Jan 8, 2006 9:05:06 GMT -5
there was a fella called jesus, fact, undenieable proof, its weather or not you beleive him to be the sun of god
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2006 16:12:41 GMT -5
there was a fella called jesus, fact, undenieable proof, its weather or not you beleive him to be the sun of god what is the proof, im not doubting there is some, its just that many people have told me there is proof without telling me what the proof is.
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Post by wankinginthebushes on Jan 8, 2006 16:34:28 GMT -5
there was a fella called jesus, fact, undenieable proof, its weather or not you beleive him to be the sun of god whats these facts then?
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Post by Dominic on Jan 8, 2006 16:46:07 GMT -5
i was forced to watch some descovery program crap in school, anyways, just as now, there were censius back there, a court records and so on, offical documents about that person jesus, the romans were all about taxing and in the time of jesus held numerious censius etc
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Post by wankinginthebushes on Jan 8, 2006 16:47:46 GMT -5
fair play
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Post by Dominic on Jan 8, 2006 16:49:04 GMT -5
was more, but they were very much, a melt, i was paying much attention,
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Post by Dominic on Jan 8, 2006 17:15:07 GMT -5
but i always wonder, why arnt these documents that say hes real not showen, there only talked about, id like to see them personally
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Post by daysleeper on Jan 8, 2006 19:56:20 GMT -5
i was forced to watch some descovery program crap in school, anyways, just as now, there were censius back there, a court records and so on, offical documents about that person jesus, the romans were all about taxing and in the time of jesus held numerious censius etc all those documents will be locked away in the catholic churches' secret vaults alongwith $700 billion and Dan Brown's head on a spike.... a bloke called jesus did exist - several did, it was a popular name back then. being called jesus of nazareth was a bit like being called gordon from halifax. lol. whether or not these records would show he was born in a stable after a virgin birth is another matter... Personally i think its about time we all got some kind of real effort going to sort this shit out once and for all. Considering all the belief, power and money held by all the churches and religions, isnt it about time we spent some serious time and money investigating what is fact and fiction? put a few billion dollars into a total global analysis of the history of all religion, start expeditions to look for things like Noahs ark, the holy grail etc etc people might think that sounds nuts - but religion is probably the biggest single force on this planet so why the fuck is it surrounded by so much mystery? lets try and sort it out, once and for all btw, i get that proving a god does or does not exist is nigh on impossible without a higher being showing its face, but a hell of a lot could be done to verify or disprove many of the claims in the major religious texts. or to find extra-terrestial like - get on that! that would sort it all out.... personally i think the strength of religion and the lack of investigating into it, and into alien life are all linked and controlled by 'the powers that be' and i am currently writing a novel about it called 'The Picasso Code' that will shortly be an international bestseller.....
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Post by Poshbird05 on Jan 8, 2006 21:07:47 GMT -5
I think there was a man named Jesus, wether or not you choose to believe what he may or not have been is your perogitive. Personally I was raised that way, and now I'm thinking about what I believe, I think the bible has been traslated so much that you can't trust it word for word anymore. I'd like to hope that what I believe is right but how the hell knows? I guess no one does untill they die till then I'll just keep on keeping on.
I think I started off with a point but now I don't know
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Post by drunken guitar pop on Jan 9, 2006 1:47:46 GMT -5
It would be more or less a big waste of money, if the aim was to actually prove God's existance or that Jesus was supernatural, as opposed to just gaining more information about something people will always look at by their own perogative.
Very few people convert to or from Christianity for intellectual reasons, as opposed to the majority doing it for personal reasons. Even if you spend all the time in the world searching for evidence, faith for or against it is the bottom line. It will be confirmed for everyone when their time here is done, but for now, it just comes down to something you have to accept or deny.
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Post by wankinginthebushes on Jan 9, 2006 2:28:04 GMT -5
A british paper (the daily mail) had a front page totry 2 years ago about finding noahs ark. well they thought they did. anyway, they had some facts on the noahs ark story which were summit like (these aint 100% accurate) To build a ship big enough to house all those animals, it would have to be the same size as a small town It would take 10 people 700 years to make To gather 2 of every species it would take 200 years they aint the same numbers they used but there abouts. i remember it so well, cos i used to love telling people that really think it happnened
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Post by Mogly on Jan 9, 2006 2:45:19 GMT -5
yeah and can you imagine the lions and the elephants and the gorillas and all the wild animals all staying still for 40 days, nothing to eat, cos of course they wouldn't eat each other.... plus I don't really think that almost 6000 years ago, when Noah was supposed to build such an ark, they would've been able to build it cos you'd need some kind of technology to build such thing properly. the bible has some nice stories but I seriously doubt any of them can be taken literally
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Post by tezza202 on Jan 9, 2006 6:42:59 GMT -5
Obviously he did exist because of the cenus/records/register whatever. Personally I believe in God, but I don't think you can have solid evidence of proving he is the son of God (for the sceptics), but theres no solid evidence to say he isn't and that there isn't a God either. You wouldn't find anything like a Holy grail, or an ark or anything like that now probably to prove it anyway. One of lifes mysteries I guess!
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Post by Dominic on Jan 9, 2006 11:08:13 GMT -5
apperently, every religion beleives in some sort of noahs arch event, so me teacher was saying, but shes a werid hippy and i dont listen to her much
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Post by Kamikazi on Jan 9, 2006 11:40:59 GMT -5
the roman catholics have been through too much random corruption for me. From Martin Luther and three popes at once it really leaves me with pretty little faith. That and Henry VIII making his own damn church so he can have himself divorced. (kind of ironic cause my mum's anglican)
Personally, I'll say yeah, this Jesus guy kicked around for a little while, but I'm not going to bother shaping my whole life around what he may or may not have said was good and bad.
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Post by DixonHill on Jan 9, 2006 11:46:31 GMT -5
if there is no God, why are we here? how did we get here? and who made us?
maybe you all should speak to Tom Cruise about Scientology. ;D but then again, you probably don't believe in Aliens, either. ;D
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Post by wankinginthebushes on Jan 9, 2006 16:50:11 GMT -5
if there is no God, why are we here? how did we get here? and who made us? evolution not some random guy clickin his fingers and saying 'i have created man' bollcoks all religion is stupid biggest foundation of war and murder in the world today.
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Post by feckarse on Jan 9, 2006 17:30:19 GMT -5
all religion is stupid biggest foundation of war and murder in the world today. as far as i'm concerned religion is bollox but it's not the foundation of war and murder. Yes a lot of wars and murders occur in the name of religion, but their presence isn't due to religion. If you could magically remove religion, it wouldn't prevent wars. There would simply be a different reason for wars right in its place. Human nature, sadly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2006 17:36:03 GMT -5
if there is no God, why are we here? how did we get here? and who made us? maybe you all should speak to Tom Cruise about Scientology. ;D but then again, you probably don't believe in Aliens, either. ;D i ask you the same questions about god. If god exists, how did he get there and who made him.
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Post by feckarse on Jan 9, 2006 17:45:00 GMT -5
i ask you the same questions about god. If god exists, how did he get there and who made him. your puny brain is thinking of things too simplistically (sp?)... Now I mean no offence, my brain is puny too, as is that of every person on earth when it comes to trying to comprehend the universe Take for example: we perceive time as a universal constant in our heads (which it isn't) and that it always moves in one direction. If we had the ability to perceive it better and ground an understanding in it more solidly, then our minds would be open to far deeper thoughts on the roots of the 'creation' of the universe. Does the universe have a beginning? Is it caught in some loop with parallel universes in ways we can't even understand? Our simple minds mean we're probably all asking the wrong questions... I don't know what the right questions are, but I believe that even the world's smartest scientest is far from anywhere when it comes to understanding the universe. Let me give an analogy: My dog is smart. She can give the paw, beg, roll-over and even collect the newspaper on request. But I tried to teach her simple trigonometry, and no matter how hard I tried to teach, or she tried to learn, she never had a chance of comprehending it. It's nothing negative about the dog, just her mind is too simple for that task, even though by her standards, she considers herself to be smart. But try to explain to her that the world is round and rotates around the sun! Now put us on the scale of the Universe.... we're not even out of the nursery yet The more you learn, the more you realise you don't know I'll stop rambling , I'm tired and want to go to bed!
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Post by lionsden® on Jan 9, 2006 22:23:15 GMT -5
What force, power or laws existed before the beginning of the universe to make it come into existence? Since the universe exists, what was the cause? Our rational minds tell us the universe could not have come from nothing. That defies not only logic but the laws of physics. What—or who—caused the universe? Why was it brought into being?
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Post by Mogly on Jan 9, 2006 23:12:41 GMT -5
yeah both science and religion try to explain the formation of the universe from different point of views and both theories have many many flaws.... it's all about what you believe in. in what I don't believe is in fighting just cos someone else has a different perspective about it. religion isn't improving it's theory, they are happy with what they've got, but science paradigms are everchanging and I see no reason to believe that the theory of the big bang and all will stick forever.... you guys are right when you say it's reason and logic that don't let us expand our p.o.v
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