Lundblad
Oasis Roadie
Nothing ever lasts forever
Posts: 428
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Post by Lundblad on Jan 12, 2024 4:58:34 GMT -5
I appreciate that you took your time to engage and made a reply, but – I am sorry, several of your statements are ridiculous. In the first half of your post you make several points that may be factually correct in many aspects, such as the ones about the living conditions of palestinians, radicalisation etc. I don't draw the same conclusions as you from them, but you can make those arguments. But the fact that the situation in Palestine in many ways has been bad cannot be used as a justification for the Oct 7 attacks. I am not sure if you mean to do that, but that is the logical conclusion of what you are writing. And the logical reasons for Israel's actions and its right to defend its citizens has to be taken into account. I think the mistake that many western observers make is that they view this conflict from a post-colonial perspective, or see a perceived "stronger" side in Israel and a "weaker" side in Palestinians – you mention the "power balance". A power balance can explain certain actions and behaviours and the appeal of extremist ideas. But it does not justify the mass slaughter and raping of women and children on Oct 7. Oct 7 is not Israel's fault, to put it simply. You also make a strange and offensive statement: "Taking over someones land or home because you believe you're entitled to it based off of some holy text, is wrong." If we set aside the fact that the Zionist movement developed in the 19th Century due to the persecution of Jews in Europe – the fact is that Israel has existed since 1948. The Jewish settlers have been back in the region for more than 100 years. They won't go away. The cold fact is that Palestinians and its leadership need to deal with this fact and accept it. There will be no peace or development until they do. The end is worse. "We are seeing a new holocaust unfold before our very eyes. And while at the start of WWII the U.S took a neutral position... right now, we have sided with the far-right authoritarian fascists doing the holocaust and are enabling them to continue their extermination." This is an outrageous and frankly offensive statement. The holocaust was the deliberate, organised and industrialised killing of 6 million jews, in order to exterminate the Jewish people. This is also an example of why it is easy to disregard criticism of Israel as antisemitism, in the way that the industrialised murder of 6 million jews is used as a rhetorical weapon against the state of Israel's actions. My advice to you is to choose your wording more carefully and not throw around terms as "fascists", "holocaust", "genocide", "extermination", "apartheid" as liberally. But the fact that the situation in Palestine in many ways has been bad cannot be used as a justification for the Oct 7 attacks. I am not sure if you mean to do that, but that is the logical conclusion of what you are writing.
It's not a justification. it's an explanation. Just like how you explained in your first response that Israel has a right to defend itself in response to being attacked, and you went the extra mile in calling it a "duty". That too is an explanation for Israels actions. And a duty to do what exactly? Kill civilians at a 90+ percent rate? Cause and effect is relevant here. Especially if we are to convince world citizens to press for ceasefire. Lives are at stake.
You keep reasserting that Israel has the right to defend itself, but that ends at defense. What they are doing is offense. They have invaded the territory they are occupying, conducted a medieval style siege and have leveled it to the ground, killing upwards of 31,000 people, including over 10,000 children. Now they are positioning to do the same in the South of Gaza (after telling Palestinians to flee there).
the fact is that Israel has existed since 1948. The Jewish settlers have been back in the region for more than 100 years. They won't go away. The cold fact is that Palestinians and its leadership need to deal with this fact and accept it. There will be no peace or development until they do.
They don't have to 'go away' as you put it, to co-exist. They just have to not bulldoze Palestinian homes who have, as you put it, lived in the region for more than 100 years. I don't think that's asking much. Do you not recognize a difference between forcible relocation and consensual relocation? The latter is fine if parties can come to an agreeable position. It's not okay when you're doing it just because you want the land to expand settlements for Jewish only people. A religion does not grant one the right to remove the rights of those whom they dislike and impose their own will onto them. Surely you understand this and therefore must be against building ethnic settlements at the expense of people who were still living in those locations?
The holocaust(Palestinian Holocaust) was(is) the deliberate, organised and industrialised killing of 6 million jews (31,000+ Palestinians), in order to exterminate the Jewish(Palestinian) people.
What the fuck do you think is going on in Palestine? What you have just posted is a complete denial of reality. I mean, maybe you can point to the fact Israeli government only meet 2 of the three criteria beyond all reasonable doubt. Industrialized killing, perhaps is iffy and dependent on perspective. But that's still 2 out of three. And the latter could still be argued that they are just skipping the death camps and moving straight to the slaughter via their persistent bombing that has leveled nearly all of north Gaza. Is it justified to butcher them all just because Israel hasn't rounded up the Palestinians before ending their lives?
How bad does this need to get before you recognize it's a genocide? I'm asking seriously. Name your number. At what figure is a 90%+ civilian casualty rate simply too much for you? 41k? 51k? 101k? 201k? Where does it cross the line from mere casualties of war to ... okay, maybe Israel is doing ethnic cleansing? What will it take to get you to support the Palestinians? What will cause you to speak out against Israel's brutality? What is your limit for brutality?
I am not here to support Israel's settlements on the West Bank. I just made a little attempt to make the discussion more balanced. There is of course no Holocaust going on in Gaza. And ethnic cleansing and genocide and holocaust are three different things. The number of casualties, as callous as it may sound, isn't in itself part of the definition of a genocide. 9 million Germans died in the 2nd World War. The bombings of Dresden for example was probably a war crime. It is bad enough, but it was not a genocide, ethnic cleansing or a holocaust. The Allies war in Germany towards the end was about defence against Nazi Germany even if it was fought on German territory. When Ukraine attacks positions on Russian territory they are still waging a defensive war against an opponent that wants to kill them. The war in Gaza is of course a defensive war, triggered by October 7. That doesn't mean that I defend all actions of the Israeli government or the Israeli army – I don't. I agree that there are extremist elements in the Israeli government and that Netanyahu is likely corrupt and cynical as hell. However, this is not really about his flawed government. From what I understand (polls), most people in Israel does not support Netanyahu or his handling of the situation (such as the fact that Hamas got hold of all those weapons used on Oct 7 and that thousands of terrorists flooded the border on that day). He would likely lose an election held today. But the overwhelming majority of Israel supports the war in Gaza, including the majority of Arab citizens. The situation has become unbearable.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 12, 2024 10:39:44 GMT -5
But the fact that the situation in Palestine in many ways has been bad cannot be used as a justification for the Oct 7 attacks. I am not sure if you mean to do that, but that is the logical conclusion of what you are writing.
It's not a justification. it's an explanation. Just like how you explained in your first response that Israel has a right to defend itself in response to being attacked, and you went the extra mile in calling it a "duty". That too is an explanation for Israels actions. And a duty to do what exactly? Kill civilians at a 90+ percent rate? Cause and effect is relevant here. Especially if we are to convince world citizens to press for ceasefire. Lives are at stake.
You keep reasserting that Israel has the right to defend itself, but that ends at defense. What they are doing is offense. They have invaded the territory they are occupying, conducted a medieval style siege and have leveled it to the ground, killing upwards of 31,000 people, including over 10,000 children. Now they are positioning to do the same in the South of Gaza (after telling Palestinians to flee there).
the fact is that Israel has existed since 1948. The Jewish settlers have been back in the region for more than 100 years. They won't go away. The cold fact is that Palestinians and its leadership need to deal with this fact and accept it. There will be no peace or development until they do.
They don't have to 'go away' as you put it, to co-exist. They just have to not bulldoze Palestinian homes who have, as you put it, lived in the region for more than 100 years. I don't think that's asking much. Do you not recognize a difference between forcible relocation and consensual relocation? The latter is fine if parties can come to an agreeable position. It's not okay when you're doing it just because you want the land to expand settlements for Jewish only people. A religion does not grant one the right to remove the rights of those whom they dislike and impose their own will onto them. Surely you understand this and therefore must be against building ethnic settlements at the expense of people who were still living in those locations?
The holocaust(Palestinian Holocaust) was(is) the deliberate, organised and industrialised killing of 6 million jews (31,000+ Palestinians), in order to exterminate the Jewish(Palestinian) people.
What the fuck do you think is going on in Palestine? What you have just posted is a complete denial of reality. I mean, maybe you can point to the fact Israeli government only meet 2 of the three criteria beyond all reasonable doubt. Industrialized killing, perhaps is iffy and dependent on perspective. But that's still 2 out of three. And the latter could still be argued that they are just skipping the death camps and moving straight to the slaughter via their persistent bombing that has leveled nearly all of north Gaza. Is it justified to butcher them all just because Israel hasn't rounded up the Palestinians before ending their lives?
How bad does this need to get before you recognize it's a genocide? I'm asking seriously. Name your number. At what figure is a 90%+ civilian casualty rate simply too much for you? 41k? 51k? 101k? 201k? Where does it cross the line from mere casualties of war to ... okay, maybe Israel is doing ethnic cleansing? What will it take to get you to support the Palestinians? What will cause you to speak out against Israel's brutality? What is your limit for brutality?
I am not here to support Israel's settlements on the West Bank. I just made a little attempt to make the discussion more balanced. There is of course no Holocaust going on in Gaza. And ethnic cleansing and genocide and holocaust are three different things. The number of casualties, as callous as it may sound, isn't in itself part of the definition of a genocide. 9 million Germans died in the 2nd World War. The bombings of Dresden for example was probably a war crime. It is bad enough, but it was not a genocide, ethnic cleansing or a holocaust. The Allies war in Germany towards the end was about defence against Nazi Germany even if it was fought on German territory. When Ukraine attacks positions on Russian territory they are still waging a defensive war against an opponent that wants to kill them. The war in Gaza is of course a defensive war, triggered by October 7. That doesn't mean that I defend all actions of the Israeli government or the Israeli army – I don't. I agree that there are extremist elements in the Israeli government and that Netanyahu is likely corrupt and cynical as hell. However, this is not really about his flawed government. From what I understand (polls), most people in Israel does not support Netanyahu or his handling of the situation (such as the fact that Hamas got hold of all those weapons used on Oct 7 and that thousands of terrorists flooded the border on that day). He would likely lose an election held today. But the overwhelming majority of Israel supports the war in Gaza, including the majority of Arab citizens. The situation has become unbearable.
"There is of course no Holocaust going on in Gaza.
And ethnic cleansing and genocide and holocaust are three different things."
Holocaust defined by Merriam Webster: 1: a sacrifice (see sacrifice entry 1 sense 2) consumed by fire 2: a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire a nuclear holocaust 3a usually the Holocaust : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II Several members of her family died in the Holocaust. a Holocaust survivor b: a mass slaughter of people especially : genocide a holocaust in Rwanda
Ethnic Cleansing defined: the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity
Genocide defined: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
They are related things and they are all happening right now. Now there are definitions right before you. Still going to deny? On what grounds? Be specific.
"The number of casualties, as callous as it may sound, isn't in itself part of the definition of a genocide. "
I'm aware that there is no specific figure, which actually aids my point. But that doesn't mean that isn't how you personally define it. Having had hundreds of these discussions and arguments over the past three months, I have run across numerous people (usually right wingers) who believe it isn't a genocide until there are hundreds of thousands or even millions dead. I'm trying to figure out if you're one of those. But rather than you actually defining these terms to make your position more clear, you're obfuscating. You're willing to say what isn't part of the definition, but you're unwilling to state your definition and how the conditions in Gaza don't apply. Surely you're aware that there are a number of humanitarian groups, including Amnesty International who are warning that what is going on in Gaza is dangerously close to genocide and previously recognized the apartheid and occupation prior to Oct 7th. Why are they wrong? Why is your position right?
"The bombings of Dresden for example was probably a war crime. It is bad enough, but it was not a genocide, ethnic cleansing or a holocaust. "
100% a war crime. And the current death tolls in Gaza are already approaching and probably exceeding that of Dresden officially. The difference is the intent and the methods Israel are going about doing it. That's what makes the Palestinian genocide, a genocide. Israel does not have to use missiles. They choose to. They didn't have to bomb hospitals, schools, U.N camps, civilian residences and virtually every structure that contains civilians in Gaza. They chose to. Why is that okay?
"The war in Gaza is of course a defensive war, triggered by October 7."
No ... it isn't. It's not even a war. It's a massacre. Israel has gone well beyond defense. And if you're going to use October 7th to justify "self-defense" which has led to tens of thousands of deaths MORE than the casualties on October 7th, then why isn't DECADES worth of apartheid, occupation, brutality and murder of the Palestinians justification for self-defense (if you believe Palestinians are Hamas). I think you're engaging in special pleading.
The view you're expressing heavily suggests that there is no limit to the brutality and barbarism levied against the Palestinians that would ever bring you to condemn Israel and call for a ceasefire. Am I wrong? I sincerely hope that I am.
" But the overwhelming majority of Israel supports the war in Gaza, including the majority of Arab citizens. The situation has become unbearable. "
A majority of people within Israel supports genocide, so that makes a genocide okay? Oh, right, you don't think it's a genocide. My mistake.
You didn't answer my question. I asked specific questions. The most important question. What would it take for you to support the Palestinians? To recognize that Israel has gone too far. How much is too much? You acknowledged that ignoring numbers kind of makes you look bad. And I 100% agree that it makes you look bad.
But if Israel ends up exterminating a million Palestinians, are you still going to be claiming that Israel is acting in self-defense? I asked you where that line is. And you dodged answering. Why?
I've defined genocide above for your convenience. Now tell me how that isn't actually going on currently in Gaza. Because another fact that you've ignored was the apartheid and occupation that the Palestinians have been subjected to even prior to Oct 7th. Those are also violations of international law. They are humanitarian crimes. And they are crimes that went unpunished for decades. And now it has graduated from something already terrible to something inconceivable. The worst crime against humanity. NEVER AGAIN means never again for anyone. And you're denying it's even happening.
It seems like in your mind, any attack from Israel is justified as self-defense. But when an attack stems from Gaza, it's not self-defense. Just to be clear, are the Palestinians even allowed to defend themselves from the brutality of Israel? Are they allowed to fight for equal rights? Are they allowed to fight for freedom of movement? Are they allowed to fight for control of their own water, food and other resources? Are they allowed to fight for their homes? Are they allowed to fight for their right to decent living conditions?
More to the point, Gazan's aren't Hamas. So it seems a bit odd that Israel is waging a "war" against Palestinians, rather than just targeting Hamas members. It's almost like Israel just wants all Palestinians in Gaza ... gone ... Now, if only we had a word to describe that sort of targeted behavior ...
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Post by funhouse on Jan 12, 2024 18:11:53 GMT -5
Haven't been on here for a while, but Jesus Christ, annihilate Germany(minus RocketMan) from the face of the earth. Embodying the spirit of Kissinger(and that other guy), they dont want to be on the sidelines when there's a genocide going on.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 16, 2024 22:06:41 GMT -5
Finally
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settingson
Oasis Roadie
Posts: 339
Member is Online
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Post by settingson on Jan 16, 2024 22:23:30 GMT -5
This post/link comes with a big trigger warning.
One of things I like to do nowadays is to seek out social media (especially YT) that provides points of view that challenge my and/or prevailing thinking. One such video linked below.
If you disagree and just want to be right about your current point of view, then there's no point clicking the link and to be crystal clear, I am not endorsing his points of view, or saying I agree with everything in this video.
I am saying that for someone like me, who is by no means an expert, I found this video contained some interesting perspectives and facts that challenged me to think, re-think and explore a little further ...and that's something I enjoy.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 16, 2024 22:57:05 GMT -5
This post/link comes with a big trigger warning. One of things I like to do nowadays is to seek out social media (especially YT) that provides points of view that challenge my and/or prevailing thinking. One such video linked below. If you disagree and just want to be right about your current point of view, then there's no point clicking the link and to be crystal clear, I am not endorsing his points of view, or saying I agree with everything in this video. I am saying that for someone like me, who is by no means an expert, I found this video contained some interesting perspectives and facts that challenged me to think, re-think and explore a little further ...and that's something I enjoy. I found the video offensive and more akin to propaganda. His arguments are terrible. If you want an in-depth review of the situation in Israel-Palestine from an unbiased source genuinely concerned with human rights, read the 280 page report by Amnesty International. Or just the conclusions starting on page 266. www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 17, 2024 11:47:11 GMT -5
11 of 72 voted for Bernie's measure (15%). The result is not surprising at all. BUT this is positive movement. We can better put faces to names. And place pressure on these politicians for future votes on this issue, as I am confident this is just the first of many to come, especially as conditions worsen in Gaza.
What is perhaps most revealing however, is that just 15% of the 72 politicians voted for the measure which is not remotely representative of the 61% of Americans who want a ceasefire in this conflict (and likely would side with Bernie Sanders investigation).
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Post by RocketMan on Jan 18, 2024 7:17:22 GMT -5
Haven't been on here for a while, but Jesus Christ, annihilate Germany(minus RocketMan) from the face of the earth. Embodying the spirit of Kissinger(and that other guy), they dont want to be on the sidelines when there's a genocide going on. Out of guilt we give Israel a blank check, we ironically misunderstood our own history again.
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Post by funhouse on Jan 20, 2024 6:14:58 GMT -5
Haven't been on here for a while, but Jesus Christ, annihilate Germany(minus RocketMan) from the face of the earth. Embodying the spirit of Kissinger(and that other guy), they dont want to be on the sidelines when there's a genocide going on. Out of guilt we give Israel a blank check, we ironically misunderstood our own history again. It's like they think the lesson was that it was wrong to treat *Jews* that way, not minorities in general. "They're not vermin sent by the Devil? Hmm I guess they are the people sent by God then, who can do no wrong!" It would be very funny if it wasn't so crushingly depressing.
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Post by RocketMan on Jan 21, 2024 8:04:22 GMT -5
Out of guilt we give Israel a blank check, we ironically misunderstood our own history again. It's like they think the lesson was that it was wrong to treat *Jews* that way, not minorities in general. "They're not vermin sent by the Devil? Hmm I guess they are the people sent by God then, who can do no wrong!" It would be very funny if it wasn't so crushingly depressing. We just shifted the narrative towards other minorities 😇
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 22, 2024 17:13:55 GMT -5
Why would Israel desecrate numerous cemeteries in Gaza? Were there Hamas militants hiding amongst the coffins?
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Post by funhouse on Jan 24, 2024 8:54:32 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 26, 2024 14:47:37 GMT -5
Progress
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 31, 2024 16:58:28 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 31, 2024 21:29:42 GMT -5
/photo/1
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Feb 1, 2024 3:12:14 GMT -5
Israeli forces are making it uninhabitable. That's the plan.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Feb 7, 2024 16:58:50 GMT -5
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Post by The Escapist on Mar 7, 2024 21:07:47 GMT -5
Reading "The Hundred Years War on Palestine" by Rashid Khalidi.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Mar 11, 2024 17:33:50 GMT -5
Pressure is slowly working. We are heading in the right direction. It seems like Biden will inevitably place pressure on Israel, hopefully sooner rather than later. But how will Israel respond? If we pull funding and weapons, and place economic sanctions on Israel, how do they react? If they ignore it, how do we stop the genocide?
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Mar 12, 2024 3:10:10 GMT -5
I am not here to support Israel's settlements on the West Bank. I just made a little attempt to make the discussion more balanced. There is of course no Holocaust going on in Gaza. And ethnic cleansing and genocide and holocaust are three different things. The number of casualties, as callous as it may sound, isn't in itself part of the definition of a genocide. 9 million Germans died in the 2nd World War. The bombings of Dresden for example was probably a war crime. It is bad enough, but it was not a genocide, ethnic cleansing or a holocaust. The Allies war in Germany towards the end was about defence against Nazi Germany even if it was fought on German territory. When Ukraine attacks positions on Russian territory they are still waging a defensive war against an opponent that wants to kill them. The war in Gaza is of course a defensive war, triggered by October 7. That doesn't mean that I defend all actions of the Israeli government or the Israeli army – I don't. I agree that there are extremist elements in the Israeli government and that Netanyahu is likely corrupt and cynical as hell. However, this is not really about his flawed government. From what I understand (polls), most people in Israel does not support Netanyahu or his handling of the situation (such as the fact that Hamas got hold of all those weapons used on Oct 7 and that thousands of terrorists flooded the border on that day). He would likely lose an election held today. But the overwhelming majority of Israel supports the war in Gaza, including the majority of Arab citizens. The situation has become unbearable.
"There is of course no Holocaust going on in Gaza.
And ethnic cleansing and genocide and holocaust are three different things."
Holocaust defined by Merriam Webster: 1: a sacrifice (see sacrifice entry 1 sense 2) consumed by fire 2: a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire a nuclear holocaust 3a usually the Holocaust : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II Several members of her family died in the Holocaust. a Holocaust survivor b: a mass slaughter of people especially : genocide a holocaust in Rwanda
Ethnic Cleansing defined: the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity
Genocide defined: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
They are related things and they are all happening right now. Now there are definitions right before you. Still going to deny? On what grounds? Be specific.
"The number of casualties, as callous as it may sound, isn't in itself part of the definition of a genocide. "
I'm aware that there is no specific figure, which actually aids my point. But that doesn't mean that isn't how you personally define it. Having had hundreds of these discussions and arguments over the past three months, I have run across numerous people (usually right wingers) who believe it isn't a genocide until there are hundreds of thousands or even millions dead. I'm trying to figure out if you're one of those. But rather than you actually defining these terms to make your position more clear, you're obfuscating. You're willing to say what isn't part of the definition, but you're unwilling to state your definition and how the conditions in Gaza don't apply. Surely you're aware that there are a number of humanitarian groups, including Amnesty International who are warning that what is going on in Gaza is dangerously close to genocide and previously recognized the apartheid and occupation prior to Oct 7th. Why are they wrong? Why is your position right?
"The bombings of Dresden for example was probably a war crime. It is bad enough, but it was not a genocide, ethnic cleansing or a holocaust. "
100% a war crime. And the current death tolls in Gaza are already approaching and probably exceeding that of Dresden officially. The difference is the intent and the methods Israel are going about doing it. That's what makes the Palestinian genocide, a genocide. Israel does not have to use missiles. They choose to. They didn't have to bomb hospitals, schools, U.N camps, civilian residences and virtually every structure that contains civilians in Gaza. They chose to. Why is that okay?
"The war in Gaza is of course a defensive war, triggered by October 7."
No ... it isn't. It's not even a war. It's a massacre. Israel has gone well beyond defense. And if you're going to use October 7th to justify "self-defense" which has led to tens of thousands of deaths MORE than the casualties on October 7th, then why isn't DECADES worth of apartheid, occupation, brutality and murder of the Palestinians justification for self-defense (if you believe Palestinians are Hamas). I think you're engaging in special pleading.
The view you're expressing heavily suggests that there is no limit to the brutality and barbarism levied against the Palestinians that would ever bring you to condemn Israel and call for a ceasefire. Am I wrong? I sincerely hope that I am.
" But the overwhelming majority of Israel supports the war in Gaza, including the majority of Arab citizens. The situation has become unbearable. "
A majority of people within Israel supports genocide, so that makes a genocide okay? Oh, right, you don't think it's a genocide. My mistake.
You didn't answer my question. I asked specific questions. The most important question. What would it take for you to support the Palestinians? To recognize that Israel has gone too far. How much is too much? You acknowledged that ignoring numbers kind of makes you look bad. And I 100% agree that it makes you look bad.
But if Israel ends up exterminating a million Palestinians, are you still going to be claiming that Israel is acting in self-defense? I asked you where that line is. And you dodged answering. Why?
I've defined genocide above for your convenience. Now tell me how that isn't actually going on currently in Gaza. Because another fact that you've ignored was the apartheid and occupation that the Palestinians have been subjected to even prior to Oct 7th. Those are also violations of international law. They are humanitarian crimes. And they are crimes that went unpunished for decades. And now it has graduated from something already terrible to something inconceivable. The worst crime against humanity. NEVER AGAIN means never again for anyone. And you're denying it's even happening.
It seems like in your mind, any attack from Israel is justified as self-defense. But when an attack stems from Gaza, it's not self-defense. Just to be clear, are the Palestinians even allowed to defend themselves from the brutality of Israel? Are they allowed to fight for equal rights? Are they allowed to fight for freedom of movement? Are they allowed to fight for control of their own water, food and other resources? Are they allowed to fight for their homes? Are they allowed to fight for their right to decent living conditions? More to the point, Gazan's aren't Hamas. So it seems a bit odd that Israel is waging a "war" against Palestinians, rather than just targeting Hamas members. It's almost like Israel just wants all Palestinians in Gaza ... gone ... Now, if only we had a word to describe that sort of targeted behavior ...
Sudan: Not a genocide to you China Urgyhurs: Not a Genocide to you Mynamar: Not a genocide to you Yet a country who's leader personally ordered the assassination of Nizar Banat is? Buddy, the Jews and Muslims fighting Hamas are full of hatred for Abbas. If the world hates genocide why are the Sudanese and others being ignored? And don't call me the Z word for mentioning your trendy BS to dismiss everyone else who are actual genocides
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Mar 12, 2024 21:45:02 GMT -5
"There is of course no Holocaust going on in Gaza.
And ethnic cleansing and genocide and holocaust are three different things."
Holocaust defined by Merriam Webster: 1: a sacrifice (see sacrifice entry 1 sense 2) consumed by fire 2: a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire a nuclear holocaust 3a usually the Holocaust : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II Several members of her family died in the Holocaust. a Holocaust survivor b: a mass slaughter of people especially : genocide a holocaust in Rwanda
Ethnic Cleansing defined: the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity
Genocide defined: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
They are related things and they are all happening right now. Now there are definitions right before you. Still going to deny? On what grounds? Be specific.
"The number of casualties, as callous as it may sound, isn't in itself part of the definition of a genocide. "
I'm aware that there is no specific figure, which actually aids my point. But that doesn't mean that isn't how you personally define it. Having had hundreds of these discussions and arguments over the past three months, I have run across numerous people (usually right wingers) who believe it isn't a genocide until there are hundreds of thousands or even millions dead. I'm trying to figure out if you're one of those. But rather than you actually defining these terms to make your position more clear, you're obfuscating. You're willing to say what isn't part of the definition, but you're unwilling to state your definition and how the conditions in Gaza don't apply. Surely you're aware that there are a number of humanitarian groups, including Amnesty International who are warning that what is going on in Gaza is dangerously close to genocide and previously recognized the apartheid and occupation prior to Oct 7th. Why are they wrong? Why is your position right?
"The bombings of Dresden for example was probably a war crime. It is bad enough, but it was not a genocide, ethnic cleansing or a holocaust. "
100% a war crime. And the current death tolls in Gaza are already approaching and probably exceeding that of Dresden officially. The difference is the intent and the methods Israel are going about doing it. That's what makes the Palestinian genocide, a genocide. Israel does not have to use missiles. They choose to. They didn't have to bomb hospitals, schools, U.N camps, civilian residences and virtually every structure that contains civilians in Gaza. They chose to. Why is that okay?
"The war in Gaza is of course a defensive war, triggered by October 7."
No ... it isn't. It's not even a war. It's a massacre. Israel has gone well beyond defense. And if you're going to use October 7th to justify "self-defense" which has led to tens of thousands of deaths MORE than the casualties on October 7th, then why isn't DECADES worth of apartheid, occupation, brutality and murder of the Palestinians justification for self-defense (if you believe Palestinians are Hamas). I think you're engaging in special pleading.
The view you're expressing heavily suggests that there is no limit to the brutality and barbarism levied against the Palestinians that would ever bring you to condemn Israel and call for a ceasefire. Am I wrong? I sincerely hope that I am.
" But the overwhelming majority of Israel supports the war in Gaza, including the majority of Arab citizens. The situation has become unbearable. "
A majority of people within Israel supports genocide, so that makes a genocide okay? Oh, right, you don't think it's a genocide. My mistake.
You didn't answer my question. I asked specific questions. The most important question. What would it take for you to support the Palestinians? To recognize that Israel has gone too far. How much is too much? You acknowledged that ignoring numbers kind of makes you look bad. And I 100% agree that it makes you look bad.
But if Israel ends up exterminating a million Palestinians, are you still going to be claiming that Israel is acting in self-defense? I asked you where that line is. And you dodged answering. Why?
I've defined genocide above for your convenience. Now tell me how that isn't actually going on currently in Gaza. Because another fact that you've ignored was the apartheid and occupation that the Palestinians have been subjected to even prior to Oct 7th. Those are also violations of international law. They are humanitarian crimes. And they are crimes that went unpunished for decades. And now it has graduated from something already terrible to something inconceivable. The worst crime against humanity. NEVER AGAIN means never again for anyone. And you're denying it's even happening.
It seems like in your mind, any attack from Israel is justified as self-defense. But when an attack stems from Gaza, it's not self-defense. Just to be clear, are the Palestinians even allowed to defend themselves from the brutality of Israel? Are they allowed to fight for equal rights? Are they allowed to fight for freedom of movement? Are they allowed to fight for control of their own water, food and other resources? Are they allowed to fight for their homes? Are they allowed to fight for their right to decent living conditions? More to the point, Gazan's aren't Hamas. So it seems a bit odd that Israel is waging a "war" against Palestinians, rather than just targeting Hamas members. It's almost like Israel just wants all Palestinians in Gaza ... gone ... Now, if only we had a word to describe that sort of targeted behavior ...
Sudan: Not a genocide to you China Urgyhurs: Not a Genocide to you Mynamar: Not a genocide to you Yet a country who's leader personally ordered the assassination of Nizar Banat is? Buddy, the Jews and Muslims fighting Hamas are full of hatred for Abbas. If the world hates genocide why are the Sudanese and others being ignored? And don't call me the Z word for mentioning your trendy BS to dismiss everyone else who are actual genocides If you want to engage in whataboutism, go for it. Your response here is fallacious, but it's no big deal. It's not hurting anyone to point out that other genocides are taking place in the world and making people aware, because it may lead to some sort of aid given and therefore is generally a righteous deed. That is, so long as you're not dismissing genocides taking place. But when you use words like "actual" in the context of genocides, it suggest you are in fact dismissing a genocide.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Mar 17, 2024 12:30:23 GMT -5
These figures represent a civilian death rate of 90.8%.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Mar 25, 2024 15:44:04 GMT -5
Big news!
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Mar 25, 2024 15:44:41 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Apr 13, 2024 20:21:16 GMT -5
After parts of the West Bank was raided by Zionists and villages were burned down, the Palestinians in the West Bank have decided to remove their wall of apartheid during the Iranian missile attacks on Israel.
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