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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 12, 2021 13:38:24 GMT -5
Penalty heartbreak once more… like 1990, 1996, 1998, 2004, 2006, and 2012, England exit out on penalties.
England have won just 22% (two of nine) of their major tournament shootouts (World Cup/Euros), the lowest ratio of any European nation go have been involved in three or more. ~ via the BBC
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I think the abstract concept of ‘Self-Fulfilling Prophecies’ is overused and lost all meaning, but its truest form does explain England’s perpetual penalty shootout misery.
The media and punditry banging on about this statistic at the start of every international tournament is what actually maintains the cycle. Players three decades removed should be uneffected by the hattrick of penalty traumas suffered in the 1990s. Yet here we still are.
I took a (very demanding - and excellent) Sports Psychology course as an elective in undergrad. Taught by a Scouser… Neal. He was a good man. So I know these things. Keep your head high, Saka.
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Post by megyesitomate on Jul 12, 2021 13:48:17 GMT -5
Let's not
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Post by funhouse on Jul 12, 2021 16:11:20 GMT -5
The more that I think of it, the decision to put Saka as the fifth penalty taker... it's really not a mistake you can just brush aside. He's 19, has NEVER taken a penalty in senior football before, and is put in a situation where he HAS to score to not lose the final. What on earth made Southgate make that decision? Apparently Grealish and Phillips wanted to take penalties but were denied since he had made his mind up. Absolute madness.
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Post by funhouse on Jul 12, 2021 16:49:08 GMT -5
And that's not even going into Rashford and Sancho. Two players who haven't had great tournaments, and played less than 100 minutes each. They along with Saka may have been absolute beasts when taking penalties at training, and that's why they were taken on just for that thing in mind. But if that's the case, Southgate seems to have completely ignored the mental aspects of a penalty shootout, no less a penalty shootout in a major final, for a country that hasn't won anything in 55 years.
It's easy to say that if they scored no one would give a shit, and that's true of course. But even given Jorginho's miss, he was the right guy to take the crucial fifth penalty, he has the routine and the mentality. England's choice had neither. Italy were simply much better prepared, and it just feels like Southgate was out of his depth.
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Post by defmaybe00 on Jul 12, 2021 18:10:46 GMT -5
I think we had the mental advantage given we had already beat Spain on penalties, England was at home and certainly seeing some ghosts from the past Said that, I thought the Rashford-Sancho-Saka decision was debatable Sure, it's easy to say with hindisight, but subbing guys in just to take penalties has always been a risky move (went against us in 2016) as those guys know they have just that shot to make an impact and they've not had the time to get mentally into a rhythm, add to it that both Rashford and Sancho haven't played much in this tournament and they're both quite young and it wasn't out of the picture that they'd miss They're penalty takers, so not like they can't shoot them, but you can't underestimate the psychological aspect in such a big game, if he wanted them he should've brought them in earlier Saka taking the 5th pen was shocking, think he's never taken one as a pro and he's just 19, I have a lot of respect for him for stepping up but when it's win or go home the manager should go for someone who's been in those situations before I thought Sterling could've been that guy, and I didn't really understand why he took Hendo off, I guess Grealish's not great at them but I'd have rather had him than Saka
Our 5 are not super-experienced in these stages, but besides Bonucci who has still taken some huge ones for the NT, they're all used to take them with their clubs Berardi and Bernardeschi you know you can trust more or less, Belotti missed but to be fair he scored v Spain, same for Jorginho, he missed last night and it can happen but he's the guy you trust in those situations and he delivers more often than not
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Post by oasisserbia on Jul 13, 2021 3:51:14 GMT -5
You need head more than football technique to win penalties. Only difference between England and country like Serbia is that you have more money. Bunch of uneducated, arrogant young people. Some of them can run and shoot the ball but they are still complete idiots mentally.
I remember when Mateja Kezman signed with PSV, he bought some fancy car first day and came to training and they told him to go home and that everybody drive the same car in club. Four years later he signed with Chelsea and he said that they were basically competing who will have more expensive car.
Germans have discipline, Italians passion... Djokovic for example won Wimbledon and celebrate it with his son, wife, mother and father. Your players always look like that they can't wait to win to go and celebrate with hookers in shit clubs with shit music while drinking vodka and snorting cocaine. Same as Serbian xD.
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Post by The-Ghost-Dancer on Jul 13, 2021 13:12:55 GMT -5
you dont get to jump on the england train whenever you want, now you're either a pwopa cockney geezer from laaaandaaan town or a trump loving yankee MAGA-erist you cant be both PICK ONE
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Post by RocketMan on Jul 13, 2021 14:19:19 GMT -5
The more that I think of it, the decision to put Saka as the fifth penalty taker... it's really not a mistake you can just brush aside. He's 19, has NEVER taken a penalty in senior football before, and is put in a situation where he HAS to score to not lose the final. What on earth made Southgate make that decision? Apparently Grealish and Phillips wanted to take penalties but were denied since he had made his mind up. Absolute madness. I’ve read an article, I think it was on the athletic, can’t find it right now, that was about England and their in depth studies about penalty shootouts and how to eliminate all probabilities of missing a shot. And there were some key points in there like: How likely is it for a player to miss a penalty after playing 90-120min? How likely is it for a player above/under 23 to miss? How likely is it for a player to miss if he shoots right after the whistle? How much time should a player take and breathe before taking a penalty and so on, you’ll get the point. So what im saying is: everything England did in this penalty shootout was scripted. You saw all of the points I made above against Italy Everybody took their time to shoot, everybody took a deep breath, three substitutions took a penalty, the three players who missed were all under 23 but statistically they are the most likely to score. So for Southgate to go off script after studying it for years was highly unlikely as his thought process wasn’t “who’s mentally tough enough to score right now” but “I do this shit like it said in the computers”.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 13, 2021 14:31:29 GMT -5
Rashford’s penalty angered me, though. With his Cristiano Ronaldo run up… it’s a Euro 2020 Final. England’s first final in 55 years. There’s a good chance England won’t see another final within our lifetime. And Rashford is there showboating in the penalty shootout. I’m not having that. Fantastic points about Saka, funhouse. I actually didn’t know any of that, and you’re spot on. I do not blame the kid. But Southgate, of all people, should know the pressure of a consequential penalty. Saka is a real talent, mind.
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Post by funhouse on Jul 13, 2021 15:16:36 GMT -5
The more that I think of it, the decision to put Saka as the fifth penalty taker... it's really not a mistake you can just brush aside. He's 19, has NEVER taken a penalty in senior football before, and is put in a situation where he HAS to score to not lose the final. What on earth made Southgate make that decision? Apparently Grealish and Phillips wanted to take penalties but were denied since he had made his mind up. Absolute madness. I’ve read an article, I think it was on the athletic, can’t find it right now, that was about England and their in depth studies about penalty shootouts and how to eliminate all probabilities of missing a shot. And there were some key points in there like: How likely is it for a player to miss a penalty after playing 90-120min? How likely is it for a player above/under 23 to miss? How likely is it for a player to miss if he shoots right after the whistle? How much time should a player take and breathe before taking a penalty and so on, you’ll get the point. So what im saying is: everything England did in this penalty shootout was scripted. You saw all of the points I made above against Italy Everybody took their time to shoot, everybody took a deep breath, three substitutions took a penalty, the three players who missed were all under 23 but statistically they are the most likely to score. So for Southgate to go off script after studying it for years was highly unlikely as his thought process wasn’t “who’s mentally tough enough to score right now” but “I do this shit like it said in the computers”. That does 't really surprise me. But the shootout was as good of a proof as anything that stats don't and will never show the full picture.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 13, 2021 15:40:08 GMT -5
I’ve read an article, I think it was on the athletic, can’t find it right now, that was about England and their in depth studies about penalty shootouts and how to eliminate all probabilities of missing a shot. And there were some key points in there like: How likely is it for a player to miss a penalty after playing 90-120min? How likely is it for a player above/under 23 to miss? How likely is it for a player to miss if he shoots right after the whistle? How much time should a player take and breathe before taking a penalty and so on, you’ll get the point. So what im saying is: everything England did in this penalty shootout was scripted. You saw all of the points I made above against Italy Everybody took their time to shoot, everybody took a deep breath, three substitutions took a penalty, the three players who missed were all under 23 but statistically they are the most likely to score. So for Southgate to go off script after studying it for years was highly unlikely as his thought process wasn’t “who’s mentally tough enough to score right now” but “I do this shit like it said in the computers”. That does 't really surprise me. But the shootout was as good of a proof as anything that stats don't and will never show the full picture. Yup. Up until 2010, possession almost always dictated the winner. That statistic has lost its importance over the last decade, as a deserved winner often can now often win with only 40% possession. The game is always evolving.
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Post by jezza2 on Jul 13, 2021 20:33:39 GMT -5
Stop Crying Your Heart Out
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 14, 2021 0:46:38 GMT -5
Stop Crying Your Heart Out David Seaman called. He wants his song back.
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Post by RocketMan on Jul 14, 2021 10:31:28 GMT -5
I’ve read an article, I think it was on the athletic, can’t find it right now, that was about England and their in depth studies about penalty shootouts and how to eliminate all probabilities of missing a shot. And there were some key points in there like: How likely is it for a player to miss a penalty after playing 90-120min? How likely is it for a player above/under 23 to miss? How likely is it for a player to miss if he shoots right after the whistle? How much time should a player take and breathe before taking a penalty and so on, you’ll get the point. So what im saying is: everything England did in this penalty shootout was scripted. You saw all of the points I made above against Italy Everybody took their time to shoot, everybody took a deep breath, three substitutions took a penalty, the three players who missed were all under 23 but statistically they are the most likely to score. So for Southgate to go off script after studying it for years was highly unlikely as his thought process wasn’t “who’s mentally tough enough to score right now” but “I do this shit like it said in the computers”. That does 't really surprise me. But the shootout was as good of a proof as anything that stats don't and will never show the full picture. Yeah, just shows you how much they suffer from losing them when they go in prepared like that.
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Post by The Escapist on Jul 14, 2021 10:37:46 GMT -5
Don't think you can use the pens to praise or condemn stats analysis. If Rashford's was three inches to the right, it's a perfect pen and England likely win the Euros, with Southgate's strategy vindicated. Anything can happen when it comes down to such fine margins, just got to take the result and move on with what you were doing.
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Post by jezza2 on Jul 14, 2021 18:00:11 GMT -5
Stop Crying Your Heart Out David Seaman called. He wants his song back. Tell him in order to get it back you have to chose between being a cockney geezer or a maga nut
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Post by settingson on Jul 16, 2021 23:13:20 GMT -5
Bringing penalty takers on at the end of extra time was a pretty questionable strategy to begin with.
Rashford's penalty technique in this situation was naive at best, as it just ratcheted up the (already intense) pressure on him. Maybe ok in a normal penalty situation, but here? Crazy.
Having Saka take that last penalty just beggars belief tbqh.
Genuine chances to win major tournaments don't come along very often, especially at your own stadium. No doubt Southgate has done well since he took over, but he fluffed his lines when it mattered most.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Dec 11, 2022 17:34:30 GMT -5
and again.
Kane never should have taken the second penalty. I said he would miss it. Never have the same player take a second penalty in the match. Too much of a mind game. Against Lloris too, who obviously knows Kane and his penalties with Spurs. Southgate. C'mon man.
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