|
Post by yeayeayeah on Oct 2, 2019 3:49:47 GMT -5
Mostly loved it, but Noel should give the "army of songwriters" crack a rest. He's had plenty of co-writers in his day, they just didn't know they were doing it. Stevie Wonder, Neil Innes, Marc Bolan, Gary Glitter... He basically co-wrote Who Built the Moon but whats his face didn't get songwriting credit.
|
|
emil
Oasis Roadie
Posts: 194
|
Post by emil on Oct 2, 2019 3:58:58 GMT -5
And the argument "most songwriters have ripped off" is as fan-defensively daft as when KISS fans say EVERYONE IN THE ROCK AND ROLL BUSINESS LIPSYNCS now when Paul Stanley does it. Pearl Jam must have a similar amount of songs written as Oasis has. I can name these occurrences on the topic of "ripping off": - Given to Fly sounding somewhat similar to Led Zeppelins Going to California - The song I Got Shit having the same chord progression as Neil Youngs Cinnamon Girl, but not sounding the same. And Neil Young plays on I Got Shit... so - Mike doing a version of Ace Frehleys solo from the song She as a homage in his Alive-solo. (Ace obviously ripped off the She solo from the Doors Noel-style, So I guess you have a case for "second-hand ripping off" there) - Eddie Vedder singing "It's already been sung, but it can't be said enough. All you need is love" referencing the Beatles. Would not count that as ripping off. But I guess - EVERY MAJOR ARTIST LIPSYNCS IN 2019, IT'S JUST HOW THE BUSINESS WORKS! IT'S NOT UNIQUE TO R'KID STARCHILD GOD DAMMIT!
|
|
|
Post by DCUnited on Oct 2, 2019 10:26:42 GMT -5
Still, there is something ironic about a person shitting on another person needing help with his songwriting - when he himself is one of rocks most notorious and blatant plagiarizers. Can't even listen to his The Doors rip without cringing. The gall is on another level. So, there is some irony in complaining about that. I think. Out of the hundred of songs Noel has written, you choose to remember one stupid song when he was on a songwriting-inspiration low. Most songwriters have ripped off other (Even Lennon and Macca) but Noel is the most documented, that's all. It's completely different to write songs and maybe (conscious or not, Hello My Sweet Lord) ripp off someone than hiring industry writers to write your tunes and have ideas for you. You're comparing a potato to a cat, really. Only one Doors rip off? Are u sure about that?.....
|
|
|
Post by aesthetic on Oct 2, 2019 11:03:11 GMT -5
there's a difference between taking inspiration, even theft, from having hired co-writers This. Although I think even labelling what Liam is doing now as "co-writing" is inaccurate. The corporate machine spits out a bunch of numbers that aren't even specifically written for him and with the magic of the studio they mould them into whatever the record label thinks it is "supposed" to sound like to shift some units and pay back the gamble they took in him. You can't blame them or Liam for doing it, I don't begrudge anyone trying to making a few quid, but comparing Noel's plagiarism to what Liam is currently doing is absolutely ridiculous, they are completely different worlds.
|
|
|
Post by andymorris on Oct 2, 2019 12:36:04 GMT -5
Out of the hundred of songs Noel has written, you choose to remember one stupid song when he was on a songwriting-inspiration low. Most songwriters have ripped off other (Even Lennon and Macca) but Noel is the most documented, that's all. It's completely different to write songs and maybe (conscious or not, Hello My Sweet Lord) ripp off someone than hiring industry writers to write your tunes and have ideas for you. You're comparing a potato to a cat, really. Only one Doors rip off? Are u sure about that?..... At least two What i meant is, among all the songs Noel's written, he's more or less ripped off the same amount as any other songwriter. When you dig into any great band of the past (stones, Beatles, Zep...etc), all admit freely that they took from other and are not ashamed of it. Sometimes, though, it should have been co-credited, i'll give you that. It's totally different than just phoning your songwriter to ask him to write about a Meadow or a shockwave. However good it is, it will never be the same level. He basically co-wrote Who Built the Moon but whats his face didn't get songwriting credit. That's what they call producing. Some bands go into studio with no material and write under the direction of a producer. it's directing, not writing. Or George Martin should have had credits for all Beatles songs.
|
|
|
Post by americanparkamonkey on Oct 2, 2019 12:55:46 GMT -5
there's a difference between taking inspiration, even theft, from having hired co-writers This. Although I think even labelling what Liam is doing now as "co-writing" is inaccurate. The corporate machine spits out a bunch of numbers that aren't even specifically written for him and with the magic of the studio they mould them into whatever the record label thinks it is "supposed" to sound like to shift some units and pay back the gamble they took in him. You can't blame them or Liam for doing it, I don't begrudge anyone trying to making a few quid, but comparing Noel's plagiarism to what Liam is currently doing is absolutely ridiculous, they are completely different worlds. Do you really think "When it's freezing she's my mittens and my coat, When I get too hot she's my lager, Nice and cold" was produced by "the corporate machine"? or the riffs in the so obviously Liam penned verses to "why me why not?" and "once"... I think the idea (which has been floated before) that these songs are throwaways that were rejected by other pop stars and that Liam doesn't have a heavy hand in the writing process of these songs is way off base.
|
|
|
Post by yeayeayeah on Oct 2, 2019 14:24:32 GMT -5
Only one Doors rip off? Are u sure about that?..... At least two What i meant is, among all the songs Noel's written, he's more or less ripped off the same amount as any other songwriter. When you dig into any great band of the past (stones, Beatles, Zep...etc), all admit freely that they took from other and are not ashamed of it. Sometimes, though, it should have been co-credited, i'll give you that. It's totally different than just phoning your songwriter to ask him to write about a Meadow or a shockwave. However good it is, it will never be the same level. He basically co-wrote Who Built the Moon but whats his face didn't get songwriting credit. That's what they call producing. Some bands go into studio with no material and write under the direction of a producer. it's directing, not writing. Or George Martin should have had credits for all Beatles songs. Producers often get songwriting credit these days. Can't really compare to Beatle times as Lennon/McCartney was set in. If they went by todays standards, Ringo would get credit for writing his drum part.
|
|
|
Post by andymorris on Oct 3, 2019 2:49:44 GMT -5
At least two What i meant is, among all the songs Noel's written, he's more or less ripped off the same amount as any other songwriter. When you dig into any great band of the past (stones, Beatles, Zep...etc), all admit freely that they took from other and are not ashamed of it. Sometimes, though, it should have been co-credited, i'll give you that. It's totally different than just phoning your songwriter to ask him to write about a Meadow or a shockwave. However good it is, it will never be the same level. That's what they call producing. Some bands go into studio with no material and write under the direction of a producer. it's directing, not writing. Or George Martin should have had credits for all Beatles songs. Producers often get songwriting credit these days. Can't really compare to Beatle times as Lennon/McCartney was set in. If they went by todays standards, Ringo would get credit for writing his drum part. That's coz producers now are also writing the songs, simply put, something the army does with Liam. I wouldn't call what David Holmes is doing with Noel Gallagher songwriting. It's more directing than songwriting. From what we know of the recording sessions, Holmes simply rejected Noel's melodies that were too close to Oasis, and assembled sounds he made. So, producing. George Martin was more than a producer, and is harder to define. He has written the score for all the strings parts in the Beatles, Overall, he kinda was for the Beatles what Holmes was for Noel on WBTM, but on a higher level. I doubt Holmes has written anything on WBTM. To say Noel doesn't give credits is wrong i think. WBTM is the only one of his record where he is not co-producer, it's only credited to Holmes. That's huge to me. Last time that happened, it was on HC.
|
|
|
Post by vespa on Oct 3, 2019 2:55:39 GMT -5
Producing isn’t songwriting , producers polish up the tracks add effects etc but the songs are written and directed by the artist .Liams songwriters help tidy up his demos and possibly write the chorus or bridges that lift the song to the next level and that’s why they co-write and get credit , the songs will be guided by Liam and mostly will be demos he’s got
|
|
|
Post by yeayeayeah on Oct 3, 2019 3:25:06 GMT -5
Producing isn’t songwriting , producers polish up the tracks add effects etc but the songs are written and directed by the artist .Liams songwriters help tidy up his demos and possibly write the chorus or bridges that lift the song to the next level and that’s why they co-write and get credit , the songs will be guided by Liam and mostly will be demos he’s got I think that's the case of some of the songs but songs like Alright Now sound nothing like anything Liam could write. I was in the camp that Liam needs to write his own songs(his songs were my favourite on AYW) but i'm a big fan of WMWN and think they bring out the best in Liam. A big difference is quite a few of the songs have nice little codas that give you something to wait for. Most Beady Eye songs you would hear the whole song within the first minute(especially the ones without choruses).
|
|
|
Post by DCUnited on Oct 3, 2019 6:49:20 GMT -5
Producers often get songwriting credit these days. Can't really compare to Beatle times as Lennon/McCartney was set in. If they went by todays standards, Ringo would get credit for writing his drum part. That's coz producers now are also writing the songs, simply put, something the army does with Liam. I wouldn't call what David Holmes is doing with Noel Gallagher songwriting. It's more directing than songwriting. From what we know of the recording sessions, Holmes simply rejected Noel's melodies that were too close to Oasis, and assembled sounds he made. So, producing. George Martin was more than a producer, and is harder to define. He has written the score for all the strings parts in the Beatles, Overall, he kinda was for the Beatles what Holmes was for Noel on WBTM, but on a higher level. I doubt Holmes has written anything on WBTM. To say Noel doesn't give credits is wrong i think. WBTM is the only one of his record where he is not co-producer, it's only credited to Holmes. That's huge to me. Last time that happened, it was on HC. Heathen Chemistry was self produced by Oasis
|
|
|
Post by andymorris on Oct 3, 2019 7:01:55 GMT -5
That's coz producers now are also writing the songs, simply put, something the army does with Liam. I wouldn't call what David Holmes is doing with Noel Gallagher songwriting. It's more directing than songwriting. From what we know of the recording sessions, Holmes simply rejected Noel's melodies that were too close to Oasis, and assembled sounds he made. So, producing. George Martin was more than a producer, and is harder to define. He has written the score for all the strings parts in the Beatles, Overall, he kinda was for the Beatles what Holmes was for Noel on WBTM, but on a higher level. I doubt Holmes has written anything on WBTM. To say Noel doesn't give credits is wrong i think. WBTM is the only one of his record where he is not co-producer, it's only credited to Holmes. That's huge to me. Last time that happened, it was on HC. Heathen Chemistry was self produced by Oasis that's what i meant It was a big step back then since all the other records (bar DM) were "co-produced" by Noel, it's proof Noel gives credits when deserved...
|
|
|
Post by aesthetic on Oct 3, 2019 11:11:00 GMT -5
I think the idea (which has been floated before) that these songs are throwaways that were rejected by other pop stars and that Liam doesn't have a heavy hand in the writing process of these songs is way off base. I don't think they were "rejected" by other pop stars, but I definitely think the songwriters have banks of songs that they write, and then the record company in conjuction with Liam's team figure out which ones would work best for him. And yes, I'm sure Liam does have some input in the studio, writing a few lines here and there, influencing the sound and production etc. Certainly more on the new album. But my original point still stands -- comparing Noel's plagiarism to whatever it is Liam is doing now is utterly incorrect. Regardless of whether Noel ripped songs off or not, the bloke was sat on his own in a room with a guitar and penned those songs himself. Cigarettes & Alcohol is still a pure and real song, even if the riff is a blatant rip off. What Liam is doing stands completely against what Oasis were originally about -- rebelling against the carbon copy corporate assembly line of pop songs.
|
|
|
Post by thomaslivesforever on Oct 3, 2019 11:45:18 GMT -5
I think the idea (which has been floated before) that these songs are throwaways that were rejected by other pop stars and that Liam doesn't have a heavy hand in the writing process of these songs is way off base. I don't think they were "rejected" by other pop stars, but I definitely think the songwriters have banks of songs that they write, and then the record company in conjuction with Liam's team figure out which ones would work best for him. And yes, I'm sure Liam does have some input in the studio, writing a few lines here and there, influencing the sound and production etc. Certainly more on the new album. He's already said that he sends them verses, and they work on them, provide choruses. I think he sends them what he has they finish them and then the company have a listen.
|
|
|
Post by Lennon2217 on Oct 3, 2019 11:46:45 GMT -5
Let Liam be Liam. It’s working this way. Zero complaints from me.
|
|
|
Post by americanparkamonkey on Oct 3, 2019 12:55:41 GMT -5
I think the idea (which has been floated before) that these songs are throwaways that were rejected by other pop stars and that Liam doesn't have a heavy hand in the writing process of these songs is way off base. I don't think they were "rejected" by other pop stars, but I definitely think the songwriters have banks of songs that they write, and then the record company in conjuction with Liam's team figure out which ones would work best for him. And yes, I'm sure Liam does have some input in the studio, writing a few lines here and there, influencing the sound and production etc. Certainly more on the new album. But my original point still stands -- comparing Noel's plagiarism to whatever it is Liam is doing now is utterly incorrect. Regardless of whether Noel ripped songs off or not, the bloke was sat on his own in a room with a guitar and penned those songs himself. Cigarettes & Alcohol is still a pure and real song, even if the riff is a blatant rip off. What Liam is doing stands completely against what Oasis were originally about -- rebelling against the carbon copy corporate assembly line of pop songs. I actually don't disagree with your original point as far as comparing Noels plagiarism to Liams co-writing, I just think Liam has more to do with writing these songs (especially on the new record) than some people want to give him credit for, from what we've been able to read he's writing a lot of the verses (lyrics and music) and getting help with the choruses and structure/composition. If I'm being totally honest, I do wish that the stuff he's doing now was a bit more organic ie: working with a band and not so overproduced... but I like a lot of the new record and I understand that he needs the help if he's going to be on the level that he is at this moment. My ideal world would have more Invisible Suns and Once's, but I'm just happy to see the guy succeeding and happy. If we're going to compare what either Gallagher are doing right now to what Oasis were originally about, I think they're both falling short in different ways.
|
|
|
Post by andymorris on Oct 3, 2019 13:33:46 GMT -5
I don't think they were "rejected" by other pop stars, but I definitely think the songwriters have banks of songs that they write, and then the record company in conjuction with Liam's team figure out which ones would work best for him. And yes, I'm sure Liam does have some input in the studio, writing a few lines here and there, influencing the sound and production etc. Certainly more on the new album. But my original point still stands -- comparing Noel's plagiarism to whatever it is Liam is doing now is utterly incorrect. Regardless of whether Noel ripped songs off or not, the bloke was sat on his own in a room with a guitar and penned those songs himself. Cigarettes & Alcohol is still a pure and real song, even if the riff is a blatant rip off. What Liam is doing stands completely against what Oasis were originally about -- rebelling against the carbon copy corporate assembly line of pop songs. I actually don't disagree with your original point as far as comparing Noels plagiarism to Liams co-writing, I just think Liam has more to do with writing these songs (especially on the new record) than some people want to give him credit for, from what we've been able to read he's writing a lot of the verses (lyrics and music) and getting help with the choruses and structure/composition. If I'm being totally honest, I do wish that the stuff he's doing now was a bit more organic ie: working with a band and not so overproduced... but I like a lot of the new record and I understand that he needs the help if he's going to be on the level that he is at this moment. My ideal world would have more Invisible Suns and Once's, but I'm just happy to see the guy succeeding and happy. If we're going to compare what either Gallagher are doing right now to what Oasis were originally about, I think they're both falling short in different ways. That's a fair reply. I think Liam needs to go deeper and explain the songwriting process in detail, song by song, how they are constructed and recorded. Fans would be interested and it would end all debate.
|
|
|
Post by americanparkamonkey on Oct 3, 2019 15:34:46 GMT -5
I actually don't disagree with your original point as far as comparing Noels plagiarism to Liams co-writing, I just think Liam has more to do with writing these songs (especially on the new record) than some people want to give him credit for, from what we've been able to read he's writing a lot of the verses (lyrics and music) and getting help with the choruses and structure/composition. If I'm being totally honest, I do wish that the stuff he's doing now was a bit more organic ie: working with a band and not so overproduced... but I like a lot of the new record and I understand that he needs the help if he's going to be on the level that he is at this moment. My ideal world would have more Invisible Suns and Once's, but I'm just happy to see the guy succeeding and happy. If we're going to compare what either Gallagher are doing right now to what Oasis were originally about, I think they're both falling short in different ways. That's a fair reply. I think Liam needs to go deeper and explain the songwriting process in detail, song by song, how they are constructed and recorded. Fans would be interested and it would end all debate. That would be an interesting breakdown. Sometimes I think LG is intentionally playing down his involvement as part of his brand, but there's really no way to know for certain.
|
|
|
Post by thomaslivesforever on Oct 4, 2019 2:29:10 GMT -5
I actually don't disagree with your original point as far as comparing Noels plagiarism to Liams co-writing, I just think Liam has more to do with writing these songs (especially on the new record) than some people want to give him credit for, from what we've been able to read he's writing a lot of the verses (lyrics and music) and getting help with the choruses and structure/composition. If I'm being totally honest, I do wish that the stuff he's doing now was a bit more organic ie: working with a band and not so overproduced... but I like a lot of the new record and I understand that he needs the help if he's going to be on the level that he is at this moment. My ideal world would have more Invisible Suns and Once's, but I'm just happy to see the guy succeeding and happy. If we're going to compare what either Gallagher are doing right now to what Oasis were originally about, I think they're both falling short in different ways. That's a fair reply. I think Liam needs to go deeper and explain the songwriting process in detail, song by song, how they are constructed and recorded. Fans would be interested and it would end all debate. It’s not like there is a huge debate going on. I think a lot of what Liam did on the record can be heard.
|
|
|
Post by andymorris on Oct 4, 2019 2:39:52 GMT -5
That's a fair reply. I think Liam needs to go deeper and explain the songwriting process in detail, song by song, how they are constructed and recorded. Fans would be interested and it would end all debate. It’s not like there is a huge debate going on. I think a lot of what Liam did on the record can be heard. I dont know, the army are such good copycats that they could easily replicate Liam's style and melodies. We've been talking about that for what 2 years now, so there is a debate and a grey area...
|
|
|
Post by thomaslivesforever on Oct 4, 2019 2:43:12 GMT -5
It’s not like there is a huge debate going on. I think a lot of what Liam did on the record can be heard. I dont know, the army are such good copycats that they could easily replicate Liam's style and melodies. We've been talking about that for what 2 years now, so there is a debate and a grey area... Liam said for this record he sends them bits and pieces that they then work on them. Some songs he will have had more to do with than others.
|
|
|
Post by aesthetic on Oct 4, 2019 9:48:01 GMT -5
I do wish that the stuff he's doing now was a bit more organic ie: working with a band and not so overproduced... That is pretty much exactly how I feel about it. Overproduced and just...tired. I said in the other thread about the 2nd album: after only listening to it twice, it felt like I had heard it a thousand times before. It just felt so tired and formulaic. Yes the production and the sounds were definitely more interesting than the 1st album, but essentially it is just another one of "those" albums. Honestly I would be more interested in hearing an entirely Liam penned album, even the quality of the songs wasn't as good, at least it would feel authentic yknow? But yeah, I don't begrudge him getting back on his feet and making a few quid, and I'm glad large parts of the fanbase are enjoying it and buzzing off it. It just isn't for me. Where as the inverse doesn't seem to be true -- people who are really digging the new Liam stuff can't comprehend how anyone would enjoy the new Noel stuff and almost seem angry that any Oasis fans would. At least that is how I have perceived it from some of the threads on here.
|
|
|
Post by americanparkamonkey on Oct 5, 2019 6:39:22 GMT -5
I do wish that the stuff he's doing now was a bit more organic ie: working with a band and not so overproduced... That is pretty much exactly how I feel about it. Overproduced and just...tired. I said in the other thread about the 2nd album: after only listening to it twice, it felt like I had heard it a thousand times before. It just felt so tired and formulaic. Yes the production and the sounds were definitely more interesting than the 1st album, but essentially it is just another one of "those" albums. Honestly I would be more interested in hearing an entirely Liam penned album, even the quality of the songs wasn't as good, at least it would feel authentic yknow? But yeah, I don't begrudge him getting back on his feet and making a few quid, and I'm glad large parts of the fanbase are enjoying it and buzzing off it. It just isn't for me. Where as the inverse doesn't seem to be true -- people who are really digging the new Liam stuff can't comprehend how anyone would enjoy the new Noel stuff and almost seem angry that any Oasis fans would. At least that is how I have perceived it from some of the threads on here. That's fair, I guess I'm just happy to have something new from Liam, even if there's a good chunk of songs I always skip on the new record. I really cant get into the latest NGHFB, but I don't begrudge anyone who does.
|
|
|
Post by GlastoEls on Oct 6, 2019 12:59:45 GMT -5
It’s not like there is a huge debate going on. I think a lot of what Liam did on the record can be heard. I dont know, the army are such good copycats that they could easily replicate Liam's style and melodies. We've been talking about that for what 2 years now, so there is a debate and a grey area... We've been or you've been?
|
|
|
Post by imthewalrus79 on Oct 7, 2019 20:53:01 GMT -5
I don't get Noel's knock on singers who use songwriters. Not everyone has the talent he has to write their own great songs like he does. Why does that mean we should think any less of their singing ability because of that? Plus, he didn't seem to have a problem with Liam singing his songs when they were in Oasis.
|
|