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Post by batfink30 on Jun 15, 2019 12:43:30 GMT -5
Sounds like an incredibly immature thing to do and also the very definition of doing something just to “own the libs” to borrow a phrase from US political chatter. No, I don't think anyone voted Leave to "own the libs". However, large chunks of the country have been ignored and left to rot for decades and people raising legitimate concerns were dismissed as thick and uneducated. In the run up to the referendum, the main argument from Cameron and Remain was that things would stay as they were but could get worse if we left, but these people had been ignored and patronised for generations and had nothing anyway so for them it was a risk worth taking. Obviously it was an old post you were replying to, but my point was that a lot of remain voters (even more so now 3 years on) are all too quick to dismiss leave voters as thick, racist idiots rather than taking time to understand why they voted leave and meet in the middle to address their concerns, thinking if they just stamp their feet and talk down to people as if they're simpletons they'll change their mind. But its just creating an even bigger divide. I say this as someone who would prefer to remain by the way. And for the record, I think Noel is absolutely spot on in his latest interview. That's the problem with Brexit though. You can't just implement the result without causing harm to the UK and its most vulnerable peoplr and causing the return on a border on Ireland (without the backstop). There's a reason it hasn't happened and that's because it's so destructive.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 12:52:18 GMT -5
STOP BREXIT! PEOPLES VOTE! The People's Vote campaign is a bunch of remain voters talking to other remain voters about voting remain again. It's poorly thought out, led by individuals who hold no sway with people who voted to leave, and risks a no-deal in October by missing out the fundamental first step in stopping Brexit. There is no remaining in the EU under the Tories. They must be removed before anything else can happen. If your plan to get a referendum is to ask Boris Johnson nicely, you're a fucking idiot.
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Post by ricardogce on Jun 15, 2019 12:53:39 GMT -5
Well most people who voted for Brexit obviously romanticized the concept of it all without getting into it and realizing what it actually means for them and for others. Patronising and condescending bollocks like this is the reason people voted out - if you routinely tell people they're thick, expect them to vote against what you want them to vote. ...So they're not thick, just childishly contrary?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 12:58:06 GMT -5
Ill-informed as they often are, you don't get the luxury of not listening to a massive chunk of society without the safety net of a horribly unrepresentative first past the post electoral system.
I often think the hard Remain, People's Vote types think everything will be OK if they just vote a bit harder next time.
My area has a slim Leave majority. I have spoken to some people who voted to leave about why I think it's a bad idea. In doing so, I have done much more to avert Brexit than Chuka Umunna.
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Post by batfink30 on Jun 15, 2019 13:02:19 GMT -5
Ill-informed as they often are, you don't get the luxury of not listening to a massive chunk of society without the safety net of a horribly unrepresentative first past the post electoral system. I often think the hard Remain, People's Vote types think everything will be OK if they just vote a bit harder next time. My area has a slim Leave majority. I have spoken to some people who voted to leave about why I think it's a bad idea. In doing so, I have done much more to avert Brexit than Chuka Umunna. The problem is also the horrendous disinformation going around. Everything won't be the same after a no deal. You can't just open your borders up without customs checks and if customs checks are suddenly implemented after a no deal, it's disastrous for the UK and will cause a return to a NI border.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 13:08:32 GMT -5
Ill-informed as they often are, you don't get the luxury of not listening to a massive chunk of society without the safety net of a horribly unrepresentative first past the post electoral system. I often think the hard Remain, People's Vote types think everything will be OK if they just vote a bit harder next time. My area has a slim Leave majority. I have spoken to some people who voted to leave about why I think it's a bad idea. In doing so, I have done much more to avert Brexit than Chuka Umunna. The problem is also the horrendous disinformation going around. Everything won't be the same after a no deal. You can't just open your borders up without customs checks and if customs checks are suddenly implemented after a no deal, it's disastrous for the UK and will cause a return to a NI border. So it's our responsibility to challenge the disinformation. If you think Chuka Umunna's going to change anybody's mind (except his own), you're gonna have a bad time. I wouldn't say the People's Vote campaign is pumping out disinformation, but it is knowingly ignoring the reality that there is no referendum under the Tories.
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Post by batfink30 on Jun 15, 2019 13:22:07 GMT -5
The problem is also the horrendous disinformation going around. Everything won't be the same after a no deal. You can't just open your borders up without customs checks and if customs checks are suddenly implemented after a no deal, it's disastrous for the UK and will cause a return to a NI border. So it's our responsibility to challenge the disinformation. If you think Chuka Umunna's going to change anybody's mind (except his own), you're gonna have a bad time. I wouldn't say the People's Vote campaign is pumping out disinformation, but it is knowingly ignoring the reality that there is no referendum under the Tories. Oh yeah, I agree. The PV have been pretty awful and I'm no fan of Chukka. The UK needs some real pragmatism atm but it'd in real short supply and we're fast running out of time to one of the biggest crisis we've ever faced.
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Post by oasisunited on Jun 15, 2019 15:26:36 GMT -5
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Post by CFC2013 on Jun 15, 2019 18:59:55 GMT -5
As someone who has become more left-wing over the past few years, it pains me to see Noel Gallagher become a "Tory" by any definition. He would fit into MLK's definition of a "white moderate who is more devoted to order than justice." I guess it was inevitable since he was never really left-wing to begin with, but it still sucks.
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Post by thespiderandthefly on Jun 15, 2019 21:04:23 GMT -5
As someone who has become more left-wing over the past few years, it pains me to see Noel Gallagher become a "Tory" by any definition. He would fit into MLK's definition of a "white moderate who is more devoted to order than justice." I guess it was inevitable since he was never really left-wing to begin with, but it still sucks. Help out a Yank here who knows nothing about UK politics...Is there relatively 1:1 correlation between "Tory" and "Labour" and the US "Republican" and "Democrat"??
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Post by CFC2013 on Jun 15, 2019 21:31:11 GMT -5
As someone who has become more left-wing over the past few years, it pains me to see Noel Gallagher become a "Tory" by any definition. He would fit into MLK's definition of a "white moderate who is more devoted to order than justice." I guess it was inevitable since he was never really left-wing to begin with, but it still sucks. Help out a Yank here who knows nothing about UK politics...Is there relatively 1:1 correlation between "Tory" and "Labour" and the US "Republican" and "Democrat"?? Labour is a lot more left-wing these days, especially compared to the Democratic Party as a whole. The Tories are essentially Democrats by U.S. terms more or less. (Centre-right moderates. Hence: "Tory")
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Post by batfink30 on Jun 15, 2019 21:36:47 GMT -5
Help out a Yank here who knows nothing about UK politics...Is there relatively 1:1 correlation between "Tory" and "Labour" and the US "Republican" and "Democrat"?? Labour is a lot more left-wing these days, especially compared to the Democratic Party as a whole. The Tories are essentially Democrats by U.S. terms more or less. (Centre-right moderates. Hence: "Tory") Although the Tories have now morphed into ultra right hard Brexit crazies. Moderates have been forced out.
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Jun 16, 2019 3:53:53 GMT -5
Personally I find him embarrassing. Using words like ‘communist’ like he’s read one to many copies of the daily mail and has no ducking idea what it means anyway. That Labour are against aspiration just because they think rich people and corporations should pay there taxes. Get fucked mate. It’s funny, politically I think he’s exactly what he described Corbyn as.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 4:13:31 GMT -5
It's interesting how taxing wealth is considered the enemy of aspiration. I'd have thought a shift from taxing income to taxing wealth would be great for people looking to progress. It's almost as if it's a bullshit argument propagated by the rich. The likes of Lord Sugar seriously want us to believe it wouldn't have been worth the effort of building a £1bn business empire if they ended up only seeing £700 million of it.
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Post by The Escapist on Jun 16, 2019 6:19:41 GMT -5
Siiiiiiiit doooooownnnnn, sttttaaaaaaaaanddddddd uuuuuuuuuuuuuuppppppp...
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Post by mossy on Jun 16, 2019 8:11:25 GMT -5
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Jun 16, 2019 12:07:41 GMT -5
Siiiiiiiit doooooownnnnn, sttttaaaaaaaaanddddddd uuuuuuuuuuuuuuppppppp... Fair enough, I think. Noel had that coming.
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Post by The Escapist on Jun 16, 2019 12:32:28 GMT -5
Siiiiiiiit doooooownnnnn, sttttaaaaaaaaanddddddd uuuuuuuuuuuuuuppppppp... Fair enough, I think. Noel had that coming. Noel's politics are fair game for anyone to slag off, as far as I'm concerned. I'll take a champagne socialist over a lager Tory any day of the week.
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Post by oasisunited on Jun 16, 2019 16:06:10 GMT -5
Siiiiiiiit doooooownnnnn, sttttaaaaaaaaanddddddd uuuuuuuuuuuuuuppppppp... Fair enough, I think. Noel had that coming. In fairness to Noel, he said the exact same thing about himself (he shouldn't have an opinion because he didn't vote) in the full, unedited video of the interview. His larger point wasn't about Brexit, but rather how divisive and unaccepting people have become regarding politics and opinions. Some of the comments on this thread highlight that point (e.g. you are wrong because I dont agree with you).
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Post by The Escapist on Jun 16, 2019 16:36:26 GMT -5
Fair enough, I think. Noel had that coming. In fairness to Noel, he said the exact same thing about himself (he shouldn't have an opinion because he didn't vote) in the full, unedited video of the interview. His larger point wasn't about Brexit, but rather how divisive and unaccepting people have become regarding politics and opinions. Some of the comments on this thread highlight that point (e.g. you are wrong because I dont agree with you).I'm always fascinated by the centrist position of wanting to remove the right and wrong from politics, to share out respect as if it were equally deserved, to reduce ideologies to simple differences of opinion. Not only do I not agree with Noel's statements on many things (Corbyn, borders, democracy), I consider him to be totally wrong. Not just factually wrong, but wrong in the deeper sense of betraying the class he used to represent, of being ignorant of things that affect the communities around him, and of hiding behind stereotypical political gripes to disguise that he seems to have completely lost connection with normal life. And if that seems divisive, then good, because I'm only too glad to divide myself from it.
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Post by oasisunited on Jun 16, 2019 16:44:35 GMT -5
In fairness to Noel, he said the exact same thing about himself (he shouldn't have an opinion because he didn't vote) in the full, unedited video of the interview. His larger point wasn't about Brexit, but rather how divisive and unaccepting people have become regarding politics and opinions. Some of the comments on this thread highlight that point (e.g. you are wrong because I dont agree with you).I'm always fascinated by the centrist position of wanting to remove the right and wrong from politics, to share out respect as if it were equally deserved, to reduce ideologies to simple differences of opinion. Not only do I not agree with Noel's statements on many things (Corbyn, borders, democracy), I consider him to be totally wrong. Not just factually wrong, but wrong in the deeper sense of betraying the class he used to represent, of being ignorant of things that affect the communities around him, and of hiding behind stereotypical political gripes to disguise that he seems to have completely lost connection with normal life. And if that seems divisive, then good, because I'm only too glad to divide myself from it. I don't believe that Noel was advocating for that, nor was I in pointing out what he said. I think that part of the problem is that he is not educated enough to get his point across clearly. I'd say he's not articulate enough, but it's clear after 30 years of dealing with the media he clearly knows what is going on and what type of sound bites they are getting out him. Regardless, his point, though muddled, is still a valid one: democracy only works if the majority respects the minority and the minority respects the process and takes part in it.
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Post by Let It Bleed on Jun 16, 2019 20:02:48 GMT -5
I live in a city where marijuana legalization was on the ballot, and passed, but won't be acknowledged by city officials, citing state and federal law.....
Life isn't fair......you figure that out, and you'll be a lot happier.....
I don't even take marijuana; I used to, and voted for the legislation to pass, mainly for hoping a lot of annoying people to be less motivated to think......thinking isn't in the best interest for most people.
Thanks.
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Post by bogaloo on Jun 17, 2019 10:55:41 GMT -5
Well, my two cents.
I have a bigger problem with him saying that people on the left have become violent, than anything else, honestly. A Labour MP has been murdered during the process, so to equal that with a milkshake is as stupid as can be. I gather that this is an outsider perspective and that people on the verge of being hit by the consequences may have a different outlook on things. I have been following the whole Brexit mess quite closely, as 4 of my best friends are currently working in the NHS, 3 of them working on their PhDs, so you can imagine what the impact in their lives will be.
I have been defending the second referendum route since news of misinformation via social media appeared and given the level of buffoonery and deceitfulness around characters like Johnsons, Farages and Rees Mogg. I have wholeheartedly believed this even after listening to political commentators in my own country saying “it wouldn’t work”. Quite simply how could it not work? After being shown the facts people would surely realize they had been lied to, and change their mind. But I was wrong…
The outcome of the last European Parliament election has shown the needle has hardly moved, even after everything that’s come out. It’s not like a huge part of the population has changed their minds.
What would happen if the result is 52% remain-48% leave? Do you think people on the leave side of the argument will keep quiet? They won’t, you’d be running the risk of unleashing Farage and his racists.
What if you break it down according to the type of deal? Which deal? May’s deal? Another deal (which?)? No Deal? It’s a huge confusion.
More to the point, people must realize that voting or not voting is consequential. Did people vote irresponsibly- Yes. Are they willing to do it again- Apparently so. Did a few remainers that didn’t vote in the first place see the mistake they made? Hopefully (this goes out to you, NG). Are they enough to change the outcome? Going by the European Parliament election result? Apparently not.
Also, how the hell did Cameron and co. not realize the seismic consequences of leaving the EU? How could they accept a single majority as an indication to leave the EU, and not a qualified (2/3) majority? Who decided who was entitled to vote and why, why commonwealth citizens and not EU citizens? Obviously this had to be clarified before the referendum, but I'm not sure you can claim for invalidity due to its consequences for the country.
But if you want to take a step back, this process is also the result of British politician’s ineptitude. The EU offered several models of withdrawal, including models that wouldn’t harm people on the way and would allow the access to the customs union that would essentially solve the NI border problem. May’s will to appease extremists in her own party rendered it impossible. Corbyn’s indecision, the fact that he was waiting for the right moment for power to fall on his lap and the fact that he is, in fact, a leaver, did the rest. So, unfortunately, I think Noel’s opinion on this is not far off the mark. I stress again. UNFORTUNATELY. The result is ugly, it shines a light on very, very problematic issues of British society, but it is real, and not due to some psychotic outburst – The proof: Polls don’t seem to have changed that much ever since, and we even know who the majority leavers are- So I'm really sad for this, but I guess you'll have to wait for a large sway of the baby boomers to die, before there is a change.
You can angue they are uninformed, yes- but unfortunately, it's a one man, one vote system and no-one takes a test regarding "Political Knowledge" for any other election before voting.
Now regarding Corbyn: Noel is behaving as an uninformed, dumb fool, spewing the “communist” word without clearly understanding what it means (or using it as a shield to avoid explain what are his actual views on specific issues).
However, I do, as a someone ideologically to the left of the political spectrum, have no problem with Labour’s memorandum, but I do have issues with him, particularly issues with the partisan way he conducts the party- it’s either with me or against me, and the people he surrounds himself with (not that it is any of my business, mind, not being British and not living in the UK).
So no, he specifically and his views (and not the party views) don’t strike me as being communist, or purely Marxist, but Trotskyst – Far closer to Mélanchon in France, Podemos in Spain and the Left Block in Portugal.
Not that there is any problem with their existence. They can make a useful contribution to the democratic process (as has been shown in Portugal, for instance), but there should be a political spectrum wide enough to allow the expression and articulation of those views, and not a huge lump together in one party. That will only lead to confusion, and contribute to keep left wing political parties away from power, because a share of the traditional voters of that party will not feel represented in their leadership an some point in time.
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Post by fartpanic on Jun 17, 2019 14:35:05 GMT -5
Well, my two cents.
I have a bigger problem with him saying that people on the left have become violent, than anything else, honestly. A Labour MP has been murdered during the process, so to equal that with a milkshake is as stupid as can be. I gather that this is an outsider perspective and that people on the verge of being hit by the consequences may have a different outlook on things. I have been following the whole Brexit mess quite closely, as 4 of my best friends are currently working in the NHS, 3 of them working on their PhDs, so you can imagine what the impact in their lives will be.
I have been defending the second referendum route since news of misinformation via social media appeared and given the level of buffoonery and deceitfulness around characters like Johnsons, Farages and Rees Mogg. I have wholeheartedly believed this even after listening to political commentators in my own country saying “it wouldn’t work”. Quite simply how could it not work? After being shown the facts people would surely realize they had been lied to, and change their mind. But I was wrong…
The outcome of the last European Parliament election has shown the needle has hardly moved, even after everything that’s come out. It’s not like a huge part of the population has changed their minds.
What would happen if the result is 52% remain-48% leave? Do you think people on the leave side of the argument will keep quiet? They won’t, you’d be running the risk of unleashing Farage and his racists.
What if you break it down according to the type of deal? Which deal? May’s deal? Another deal (which?)? No Deal? It’s a huge confusion.
More to the point, people must realize that voting or not voting is consequential. Did people vote irresponsibly- Yes. Are they willing to do it again- Apparently so. Did a few remainers that didn’t vote in the first place see the mistake they made? Hopefully (this goes out to you, NG). Are they enough to change the outcome? Going by the European Parliament election result? Apparently not.
Also, how the hell did Cameron and co. not realize the seismic consequences of leaving the EU? How could they accept a single majority as an indication to leave the EU, and not a qualified (2/3) majority? Who decided who was entitled to vote and why, why commonwealth citizens and not EU citizens? Obviously this had to be clarified before the referendum, but I'm not sure you can claim for invalidity due to its consequences for the country.
But if you want to take a step back, this process is also the result of British politician’s ineptitude. The EU offered several models of withdrawal, including models that wouldn’t harm people on the way and would allow the access to the customs union that would essentially solve the NI border problem. May’s will to appease extremists in her own party rendered it impossible. Corbyn’s indecision, the fact that he was waiting for the right moment for power to fall on his lap and the fact that he is, in fact, a leaver, did the rest. So, unfortunately, I think Noel’s opinion on this is not far off the mark. I stress again. UNFORTUNATELY. The result is ugly, it shines a light on very, very problematic issues of British society, but it is real, and not due to some psychotic outburst – The proof: Polls don’t seem to have changed that much ever since, and we even know who the majority leavers are- So I'm really sad for this, but I guess you'll have to wait for a large sway of the baby boomers to die, before there is a change.
You can angue they are uninformed, yes- but unfortunately, it's a one man, one vote system and no-one takes a test regarding "Political Knowledge" for any other election before voting.
Now regarding Corbyn: Noel is behaving as an uninformed, dumb fool, spewing the “communist” word without clearly understanding what it means (or using it as a shield to avoid explain what are his actual views on specific issues).
However, I do, as a someone ideologically to the left of the political spectrum, have no problem with Labour’s memorandum, but I do have issues with him, particularly issues with the partisan way he conducts the party- it’s either with me or against me, and the people he surrounds himself with (not that it is any of my business, mind, not being British and not living in the UK).
So no, he specifically and his views (and not the party views) don’t strike me as being communist, or purely Marxist, but Trotskyst – Far closer to Mélanchon in France, Podemos in Spain and the Left Block in Portugal.
Not that there is any problem with their existence. They can make a useful contribution to the democratic process (as has been shown in Portugal, for instance), but there should be a political spectrum wide enough to allow the expression and articulation of those views, and not a huge lump together in one party. That will only lead to confusion, and contribute to keep left wing political parties away from power, because a share of the traditional voters of that party will not feel represented in their leadership an some point in time. Sorry but to only compare the murder of Jo Cox to a milkshake being thrown is completely dismissing all the violence of Antifa and the like. The left have shown on many occasions all around the world how violent they get. But it is often dismissed as activism when they do it. Agree with most of your points about the referendum but let's not gloss over the awfulness of the left and their protests.
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Jun 17, 2019 14:49:54 GMT -5
Well, my two cents.
I have a bigger problem with him saying that people on the left have become violent, than anything else, honestly. A Labour MP has been murdered during the process, so to equal that with a milkshake is as stupid as can be. I gather that this is an outsider perspective and that people on the verge of being hit by the consequences may have a different outlook on things. I have been following the whole Brexit mess quite closely, as 4 of my best friends are currently working in the NHS, 3 of them working on their PhDs, so you can imagine what the impact in their lives will be.
I have been defending the second referendum route since news of misinformation via social media appeared and given the level of buffoonery and deceitfulness around characters like Johnsons, Farages and Rees Mogg. I have wholeheartedly believed this even after listening to political commentators in my own country saying “it wouldn’t work”. Quite simply how could it not work? After being shown the facts people would surely realize they had been lied to, and change their mind. But I was wrong… The outcome of the last European Parliament election has shown the needle has hardly moved, even after everything that’s come out. It’s not like a huge part of the population has changed their minds.
What would happen if the result is 52% remain-48% leave? Do you think people on the leave side of the argument will keep quiet? They won’t, you’d be running the risk of unleashing Farage and his racists. What if you break it down according to the type of deal? Which deal? May’s deal? Another deal (which?)? No Deal? It’s a huge confusion. More to the point, people must realize that voting or not voting is consequential. Did people vote irresponsibly- Yes. Are they willing to do it again- Apparently so. Did a few remainers that didn’t vote in the first place see the mistake they made? Hopefully (this goes out to you, NG). Are they enough to change the outcome? Going by the European Parliament election result? Apparently not. Also, how the hell did Cameron and co. not realize the seismic consequences of leaving the EU? How could they accept a single majority as an indication to leave the EU, and not a qualified (2/3) majority? Who decided who was entitled to vote and why, why commonwealth citizens and not EU citizens? Obviously this had to be clarified before the referendum, but I'm not sure you can claim for invalidity due to its consequences for the country. But if you want to take a step back, this process is also the result of British politician’s ineptitude. The EU offered several models of withdrawal, including models that wouldn’t harm people on the way and would allow the access to the customs union that would essentially solve the NI border problem. May’s will to appease extremists in her own party rendered it impossible. Corbyn’s indecision, the fact that he was waiting for the right moment for power to fall on his lap and the fact that he is, in fact, a leaver, did the rest. So, unfortunately, I think Noel’s opinion on this is not far off the mark. I stress again. UNFORTUNATELY. The result is ugly, it shines a light on very, very problematic issues of British society, but it is real, and not due to some psychotic outburst – The proof: Polls don’t seem to have changed that much ever since, and we even know who the majority leavers are- So I'm really sad for this, but I guess you'll have to wait for a large sway of the baby boomers to die, before there is a change.
You can angue they are uninformed, yes- but unfortunately, it's a one man, one vote system and no-one takes a test regarding "Political Knowledge" for any other election before voting.
Now regarding Corbyn: Noel is behaving as an uninformed, dumb fool, spewing the “communist” word without clearly understanding what it means (or using it as a shield to avoid explain what are his actual views on specific issues).
However, I do, as a someone ideologically to the left of the political spectrum, have no problem with Labour’s memorandum, but I do have issues with him, particularly issues with the partisan way he conducts the party- it’s either with me or against me, and the people he surrounds himself with (not that it is any of my business, mind, not being British and not living in the UK). So no, he specifically and his views (and not the party views) don’t strike me as being communist, or purely Marxist, but Trotskyst – Far closer to Mélanchon in France, Podemos in Spain and the Left Block in Portugal. Not that there is any problem with their existence. They can make a useful contribution to the democratic process (as has been shown in Portugal, for instance), but there should be a political spectrum wide enough to allow the expression and articulation of those views, and not a huge lump together in one party. That will only lead to confusion, and contribute to keep left wing political parties away from power, because a share of the traditional voters of that party will not feel represented in their leadership an some point in time. Sorry but to only compare the murder of Jo Cox to a milkshake being thrown is completely dismissing all the violence of Antifa and the like. The left have shown on many occasions all around the world how violent they get. But it is often dismissed as activism when they do it. Agree with most of your points about the referendum but let's not gloss over the awfulness of the left and their protests. Violence on any side of the political divide is unacceptable but if you think in Britain that the left is in anyway comparable to EDL, Britain First etc then i’ll Have some of what your smoking.
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