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Post by marla on Jul 19, 2020 15:30:32 GMT -5
Sure, it didn't start out that way. But that is what it became nonetheless and should be judged accordingly. It became a witchhunt movement which in my opinion, hurt the general concept more than it gave aid. The central problem with the movement is that it was a minority of women and men poisoning the majority of followers. This being the direct result of presuming guilt before innocence, or using faith instead of evidence.
But in all fairness, it's primarily the consequence of poor education overall. It's the same sort of mindset that creates these debates over whether or not covid-19 is a hoax or whether or not to wear masks and social distance. As far as I am concerned, ignorance and poor critical thinking is rapidly destroying America.
Like I said, rape/sexual assault is a very hard thing to prove, and sadly, most of the time we only have the victims word. And trust me that most woman don't want to accuse a man of sexual assault just like did. It's a very heavy subject and can be turned against her, especially if it's someone in a position of power. I know that's not your case, but a lot of people who used the term "witchhunt" or the same people that don't want man to be held accountable for the things they did in the past, like Roman Polanski
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jul 19, 2020 16:28:00 GMT -5
Sure, it didn't start out that way. But that is what it became nonetheless and should be judged accordingly. It became a witchhunt movement which in my opinion, hurt the general concept more than it gave aid. The central problem with the movement is that it was a minority of women and men poisoning the majority of followers. This being the direct result of presuming guilt before innocence, or using faith instead of evidence.
But in all fairness, it's primarily the consequence of poor education overall. It's the same sort of mindset that creates these debates over whether or not covid-19 is a hoax or whether or not to wear masks and social distance. As far as I am concerned, ignorance and poor critical thinking is rapidly destroying America.
Like I said, rape/sexual assault is a very hard thing to prove, and sadly, most of the time we only have the victims word. And trust me that most woman don't want to accuse a man of sexual assault just like did. It's a very heavy subject and can be turned against her, especially if it's someone in a position of power. I know that's not your case, but a lot of people who used the term "witchhunt" or the same people that don't want man to be held accountable for the things they did in the past, like Roman Polanski Unfortunately, it's one of those things that often just can't be established without repetitive behavior or eyewitnesses. The earlier people speak out, the better the chances of finding truth. This needs to be encouraged. I don't think we should abandon reason though just because most of these cases can't be proven. I understand that's far from ideal for many victims, however, we have to weigh the reality of the damage.
Either we assume guilt and allow the destruction of many innocent lives, and in the cases of true rape and assault, the victim still remains a victim and has to deal with the trauma for the rest of their life. Or we keep a standard of evidence, presume innocence, less truly innocent people are destroyed and victims of actual rape and assault still have to deal with the trauma for the rest of their life.
The difference is that the rape/assault is an "isolated" past event/s which a person can recover from. Whereas, an innocent life destroyed, potentially put away for years, cannot simply recover from that. Those people will forever be shunned from society. They may be murdered in prison. And if they manage to get out of prison, they now lack resources and time to function normally in society. They will forever exist in a world that has been indoctrinated to hate them.
I have a close family member that was raped by a doctor while she was ill in the hospital. She didn't get justice in the end. But she's living life now and doing fine. I also have a best friend who suffered an accusation. The accuser has since confessed to the fabrication, but it took half a decade to fess up and even still, he has lost a job, friends and family relationships over it. The damage was done the moment the accusation was made; lasting damage, both physically and mentally. He doesn't simply get to move on from it because it affected other aspects of his life which were unrelated to the accusation.
I have seen both sides first hand and the destruction it causes. I have seen that a victim can move on from the event. They will have lasting trauma. But they are unlikely to lose support from friends and family. They are unlikely to lose jobs over the event or lose their freedom. Their life will not be turned upside down. That isn't true for the innocent folks accused. It is irresponsible of society to allow a claim to judge anyone. Doesn't matter what that claim is. Doesn't matter if it's nearly impossible to prove. We have to practice a standard and that standard must be applied to all. Even still it's not perfect. Innocents will still be imprisoned. The guilty will still walk free. But the idea is to mitigate damage overall to the best of our ability. And short of placing implants in people that record bodily data or put a camera in every room of every home and in every car and whatnot, I don't see how we fully solve the problem where total justice is found for all.
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Post by marla on Jul 19, 2020 17:00:00 GMT -5
Like I said, rape/sexual assault is a very hard thing to prove, and sadly, most of the time we only have the victims word. And trust me that most woman don't want to accuse a man of sexual assault just like did. It's a very heavy subject and can be turned against her, especially if it's someone in a position of power. I know that's not your case, but a lot of people who used the term "witchhunt" or the same people that don't want man to be held accountable for the things they did in the past, like Roman Polanski Unfortunately, it's one of those things that often just can't be established without repetitive behavior or eyewitnesses. The earlier people speak out, the better the chances of finding truth. This needs to be encouraged. I don't think we should abandon reason though just because most of these cases can't be proven. I understand that's far from ideal for many victims, however, we have to weigh the reality of the damage.
Either we assume guilt and allow the destruction of many innocent lives, and in the cases of true rape and assault, the victim still remains a victim and has to deal with the trauma for the rest of their life. Or we keep a standard of evidence, presume innocence, less truly innocent people are destroyed and victims of actual rape and assault still have to deal with the trauma for the rest of their life.
The difference is that the rape/assault is an "isolated" past event/s which a person can recover from. Whereas, an innocent life destroyed, potentially put away for years, cannot simply recover from that. Those people will forever be shunned from society. They may be murdered in prison. And if they manage to get out of prison, they now lack resources and time to function normally in society. They will forever exist in a world that has been indoctrinated to hate them.
I have a close family member that was raped by a doctor while she was ill in the hospital. She didn't get justice in the end. But she's living life now and doing fine. I also have a best friend who suffered an accusation. The accuser has since confessed to the fabrication, but it took half a decade to fess up and even still, he has lost a job, friends and family relationships over it. The damage was done the moment the accusation was made; lasting damage, both physically and mentally. He doesn't simply get to move on from it because it affected other aspects of his life which were unrelated to the accusation.
I have seen both sides first hand and the destruction it causes. I have seen that a victim can move on from the event. They will have lasting trauma. But they are unlikely to lose support from friends and family. They are unlikely to lose jobs over the event or lose their freedom. Their life will not be turned upside down. That isn't true for the innocent folks accused. It is irresponsible of society to allow a claim to judge anyone. Doesn't matter what that claim is. Doesn't matter if it's nearly impossible to prove. We have to practice a standard and that standard must be applied to all. Even still it's not perfect. Innocents will still be imprisoned. The guilty will still walk free. But the idea is to mitigate damage overall to the best of our ability. And short of placing implants in people that record bodily data or put a camera in every room of every home and in every car and whatnot, I don't see how we fully solve the problem where total justice is found for all.
I'm glad your friend managed to recover and is doing fine but you do realize that's not the case for everyone right ? Many girls/boys who have been raped take their own life, become drug addicts/alcoholics/mentally ill...My cousin, sadly, even if her rapist ended up in jail, could never got over it. So I'm sorry but for you to say something like "their life will not be turned upside down" is just ignorant. Also, I don't know where you're from, but sadly, in my country, woman are still forced to marry their rapists sometimes, the justice won't do anything if it was the husband who did it and they are looked down on for not being "virgins" anymore. And that's how it is in a lot of countries still to this day. Now I agree that we can't just condone someone without any proof
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jul 19, 2020 17:49:04 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it's one of those things that often just can't be established without repetitive behavior or eyewitnesses. The earlier people speak out, the better the chances of finding truth. This needs to be encouraged. I don't think we should abandon reason though just because most of these cases can't be proven. I understand that's far from ideal for many victims, however, we have to weigh the reality of the damage.
Either we assume guilt and allow the destruction of many innocent lives, and in the cases of true rape and assault, the victim still remains a victim and has to deal with the trauma for the rest of their life. Or we keep a standard of evidence, presume innocence, less truly innocent people are destroyed and victims of actual rape and assault still have to deal with the trauma for the rest of their life.
The difference is that the rape/assault is an "isolated" past event/s which a person can recover from. Whereas, an innocent life destroyed, potentially put away for years, cannot simply recover from that. Those people will forever be shunned from society. They may be murdered in prison. And if they manage to get out of prison, they now lack resources and time to function normally in society. They will forever exist in a world that has been indoctrinated to hate them.
I have a close family member that was raped by a doctor while she was ill in the hospital. She didn't get justice in the end. But she's living life now and doing fine. I also have a best friend who suffered an accusation. The accuser has since confessed to the fabrication, but it took half a decade to fess up and even still, he has lost a job, friends and family relationships over it. The damage was done the moment the accusation was made; lasting damage, both physically and mentally. He doesn't simply get to move on from it because it affected other aspects of his life which were unrelated to the accusation.
I have seen both sides first hand and the destruction it causes. I have seen that a victim can move on from the event. They will have lasting trauma. But they are unlikely to lose support from friends and family. They are unlikely to lose jobs over the event or lose their freedom. Their life will not be turned upside down. That isn't true for the innocent folks accused. It is irresponsible of society to allow a claim to judge anyone. Doesn't matter what that claim is. Doesn't matter if it's nearly impossible to prove. We have to practice a standard and that standard must be applied to all. Even still it's not perfect. Innocents will still be imprisoned. The guilty will still walk free. But the idea is to mitigate damage overall to the best of our ability. And short of placing implants in people that record bodily data or put a camera in every room of every home and in every car and whatnot, I don't see how we fully solve the problem where total justice is found for all.
I'm glad your friend managed to recover and is doing fine but you do realize that's not the case for everyone right ? Many girls/boys who have been raped take their own life, become drug addicts/alcoholics/mentally ill...People who are wrongly accused, who lose their career, their family and their friends also suicide. I can't blame them, frankly. It would seem the logical conclusion when every aspect of your life is poisoned.
"Many girls/boys who have been raped take their own life, become drug addicts/alcoholics/mentally ill."
Same goes for those wrongly accused.
"My cousin, sadly, even if her rapist ended up in jail, could never got over it. "
I'm sorry for your cousin. However, this is where we disagree (on ability to get over it). The mental trauma continues for the raped/assaulted. The physical trauma does not (not speaking of permanent injury, but more physical life in general). This is not the case for the wrongly accused. The mental trauma continues, as does the physical impacts. For the rest of their life. One of these sides has the chance to heal, the other generally does not, even when proven innocent.
"So I'm sorry but for you to say something like "their life will not be turned upside down" is just ignorant. "
In America, which is my country, their life won't be. That's in their hands. Now, we do have terrible mental health care here, so a valid case could be made that it's not (actually) in their hands, though potentially could be. But this would equally be true of the wrongly accused. The mental health aspect is certainly more in their hands than the lasting physical trauma is for the wrongly accused. That isn't to say it's not possible for a rape/assaulted victim to alienate their family, friends and career. Of course that could and does happen, but the conditions of their life are more in their hands than say someone calling their work to get them fired, and spreading rumors which encourage friends and family to end relationships, which tarnish their name in the eyes of their community or worse imprisonment and such. Generally, for the raped/assaulted, family and friends and even work will be very supportive to their emotions. For some, that can be everything they need for the path to their healing.
" Also, I don't know where you're from, but sadly, in my country, woman are still forced to marry their rapists sometimes, the justice won't do anything if it was the husband who did it and they are looked down on for not being "virgins" anymore."
Now that is fucked up. You've got it way worse there. That's certainly worse than someone wrongly accused. But I am speaking from the perspective of my own society only. Not in yours though. What backwards ass country is this? I do have a general guess. I hope that doesn't cause offense, but what the fuck is wrong with a culture that condones such behavior? I suspect religion is at play.
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Post by marla on Jul 20, 2020 3:10:30 GMT -5
I'm glad your friend managed to recover and is doing fine but you do realize that's not the case for everyone right ? Many girls/boys who have been raped take their own life, become drug addicts/alcoholics/mentally ill... People who are wrongly accused, who lose their career, their family and their friends also suicide. I can't blame them, frankly. It would seem the logical conclusion when every aspect of your life is poisoned.
"Many girls/boys who have been raped take their own life, become drug addicts/alcoholics/mentally ill."
Same goes for those wrongly accused.
"My cousin, sadly, even if her rapist ended up in jail, could never got over it. "
I'm sorry for your cousin. However, this is where we disagree (on ability to get over it). The mental trauma continues for the raped/assaulted. The physical trauma does not (not speaking of permanent injury, but more physical life in general). This is not the case for the wrongly accused. The mental trauma continues, as does the physical impacts. For the rest of their life. One of these sides has the chance to heal, the other generally does not, even when proven innocent.
"So I'm sorry but for you to say something like "their life will not be turned upside down" is just ignorant. "
In America, which is my country, their life won't be. That's in their hands. Now, we do have terrible mental health care here, so a valid case could be made that it's not (actually) in their hands, though potentially could be. But this would equally be true of the wrongly accused. The mental health aspect is certainly more in their hands than the lasting physical trauma is for the wrongly accused. That isn't to say it's not possible for a rape/assaulted victim to alienate their family, friends and career. Of course that could and does happen, but the conditions of their life are more in their hands than say someone calling their work to get them fired, and spreading rumors which encourage friends and family to end relationships, which tarnish their name in the eyes of their community or worse imprisonment and such. Generally, for the raped/assaulted, family and friends and even work will be very supportive to their emotions. For some, that can be everything they need for the path to their healing.
" Also, I don't know where you're from, but sadly, in my country, woman are still forced to marry their rapists sometimes, the justice won't do anything if it was the husband who did it and they are looked down on for not being "virgins" anymore."
Now that is fucked up. You've got it way worse there. That's certainly worse than someone wrongly accused. But I am speaking from the perspective of my own society only. Not in yours though. What backwards ass country is this? I do have a general guess. I hope that doesn't cause offense, but what the fuck is wrong with a culture that condones such behavior? I suspect religion is at play.
Well I guess we have to agree to disagree about the lasting effects of rape/sexual assault on a person's life. I personally think it's just as bad/worse as losing your job/family, which can happen for many other reasons btw and people have gotten over it. My dad lost his job a few years years ago and many of his so-called friends turned on him. He's fine now. Same for one of his friend (sort of my godfather) who was once accused of stealing (wrongly) and sacked. He managed to pull through. And yeah, I come from the Middle East so it's pretty shitty for women out there
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Post by Marissa on Jul 20, 2020 13:58:19 GMT -5
He didn't even do anything. His girlfriend even confirmed it was blown out of proportion. speaking as a woman who has been through shit like this, i can tell you that the woman saying something was blown out of proportion isn't always the end all be all. there was a disconnect here from day one.
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Post by darmin on Jul 20, 2020 14:09:57 GMT -5
He didn't even do anything. His girlfriend even confirmed it was blown out of proportion. speaking as a woman who has been through shit like this, i can tell you that the woman saying something was blown out of proportion isn't always the end all be all. there was a disconnect here from day one. Yeah but her whole family and friends also backing him and they may know what actually happened that night .Bc I think her father was with them that night, I saw papz pics of Liam and Debbie hugging him or something like that. Also her twin sister and some friends spend a lot of time with them. They know the situation better than us I guess. And the police too didn’t press the charges. So there’s that
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Post by IdlersDreamGirl on Nov 14, 2020 15:43:27 GMT -5
I'm not sure what to think after seeing the video several times. In the beginning, where she blocks the way of him walking almost seems like they are joking. Then when she comes closer to him and he turns around - it "appears" like both of them misjudged the distance - BUT she looked startled/shocked. I feel like some kind of argument/disagreement happened before they came into view of the CCTV camera. I'm not making excuses for his behaviour - just trying to make sense of what I see in the video. It looks a bit choppy in parts. It's well known that Liams has been a serial cheater, but in all his years in the media eye, no female has ever accused him of abuse. I can't imagine that if he had a past history of violence towards women that it would've been made public before now. I do find it odd/sad that neither Nicole nor Patsy have come forward to say that he wasn't abusive or even say he WAS abusive! Crickets from them both! They had been eager in the past to talk about how his cheating affected them....why the silence now? I think that Liam not saying anything at all will make it worse. Come out, admit that he got upset with Debbie but didn't mean to hurt her, it was an accident - something! And this just reminds everyone why Noel left in the first place, like anyone who remembers (or has seen enough videos, read enough interviews) Oasis in the 90s/00s won't remember Liam and his temper. IF there is abuse, I feel bad for Debbie wanting to stay. I feel bad for Peggy, having to deal with his at her age. I also feel bad for Liam - being compared (maybe wrongly) to the father he hates so much and possibly (but I hope not) ruining his so far amazing comeback. Since the breakup of Oasis, I have thought that their father must enjoy the fact that Liam and Noel don't talk - especially as he hated Noel so much. Sorry if this come two years later but I remember that Liam was accused of grabbing the butt of an air hostess back in the early 2000s. I didn't see this earlier - sorry for the late reply. I do remember that 'groping/grabbing' incident. I'm not sure what the outcome was. I know that the press (for the most part) have never really liked Liam (I'm NOT making excuses for him), but she could have been paid off, or dropped the charges, or the police (Rolling Stone said it was being investigated by Sussex police) could not have found enough evidence.
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