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Post by Mean Mrs. Mustard on Jul 26, 2018 16:20:13 GMT -5
People always forget Oasis were huge in the UK, but never extremely succesful all over the world, like the Beatles were for example (extreme example, that is) and just for that they will never be among "the all time greats".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 17:03:57 GMT -5
People always forget Oasis were huge in the UK, but never extremely succesful all over the world, like the Beatles were for example (extreme example, that is) and just for that they will never be among "the all time greats". Oh, they have a lot of fans in South America and Indonesia for example. They're not as universal as The Beatles but they're not The Stone Roses. Also, I don't think being successful all over the world does it all. A band like Coldplay has reached "success" all over the world, and a band like Big Star was a big flop but that's the latter that is among the all time greats... |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Jul 26, 2018 17:15:59 GMT -5
I mean Noel wasn’t exactly singing about drinking champagne from stripper’s boots post 1997. SOTSOG is a very dark and dreary album. Force of Nature, Just Getting Older, Probably All In The Mind, The Importance of Beig Idle, Part of The Queue, Lord Don’t Slow Me Down, most of DOYS songs. I wouldn’t say he was being much different than Thom in those years for song subjects. A lot of mundane life circumstances creeping into Noel’s body of work. SOTSOG was clearly Noel at his lowest eb. I happen to like the melancholy, but the songs weren't strong enough to back that up (i.e. Sunday Morning Call). I don't think any of those songs you've listed are miserable or mundane songs though. They're all tinged with the Northern arrogance and attitude. I hate to sound like a nationalist!!, but it's one of those things you kind of just get depending on where your from - I suppose that blurs my opinion a bit. When Noel sings 'I lost my faith in the summer time, cos it don't stop raining', if you've ever spent a summer in the UK (weirdly enough, just not this one currently) you'll know it's not Noel taking a philosophical outlook on the meaning of life through the weather, it's just him saying it always bloody rains. Noel's ability to make a mundane line something extraordinary and meaningful to so many people is one of his greatest talents. I just can't get into Radiohead. I like their hits, but they bore me. They always will, unless maybe one day I have the 'awakening', but bare in mind I was listening to High And Dry/Creep/Karma Police long before I started listening to Oasis properly. I'm sure they're all nice blokes, and I know for a fact they're incredibly talented musicians. But I find them dreary and dull, and I don't like the way they're hailed as the way 'that music should be' by some critics. It's nine o'clock I'm getting tired I'm sick of all my records and the clothes I bought today Am I cracking up Or just getting older? Staying in I can't be bothered Making conversation with the friends that I don't know Am I cracking up Or just getting older? And I bet that this is how life Turns out when you're finally grown And you know if this my life Sit around all day and I moan I'm halfway up to the bottom Of another bottle Of my next best favourite friend Am I cracking up Or just getting older.... |
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Post by Mean Mrs. Mustard on Jul 26, 2018 17:33:51 GMT -5
People always forget Oasis were huge in the UK, but never extremely succesful all over the world, like the Beatles were for example (extreme example, that is) and just for that they will never be among "the all time greats". Oh, they have a lot of fans in South America and Indonesia for example. They're not as universal as The Beatles but they're not The Stone Roses. Also, I don't think being successful all over the world does it all. A band like Coldplay has reached "success" all over the world, and a band like Big Star was a big flop but that's the latter that is among the all time greats... Yeah, I don't think Big Star is among the all time greats either. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 17:45:58 GMT -5
Oh, they have a lot of fans in South America and Indonesia for example. They're not as universal as The Beatles but they're not The Stone Roses. Also, I don't think being successful all over the world does it all. A band like Coldplay has reached "success" all over the world, and a band like Big Star was a big flop but that's the latter that is among the all time greats... Yeah, I don't think Big Star is among the all time greats either. 3 amazing albums though. And The Velvet Underground ? All time greats for you or no ? |
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Post by spaneli on Jul 26, 2018 19:23:37 GMT -5
Are we just judging this on the merits of "hit singles"? That is a little narrow minded. Radiohead have always been an album oriented band and consider their music artistic expression. Some people write music to drink and fuck to, which is also fine. Radiohead have 6 #1 UK Albums, 2 USA #1 albums, along with another 4 albums going Top 3 in America. Pretty damn good work if you ask me. All written by Thom. Its true Radiohead don't have any #1 singles. But they do have many many Top 10 singles (Creep, Street Spirit, Paranoid Android, Karma Police, No Surprises, Pyramid Song and There There). Plus who would ever deny the brilliance of other singles like Fake Plastic Trees, High & Dry, Just, My Iron Lung, etc. Oasis is known to have 2 masterpiece albums but nothing since 1995. Thats a long time ago. What followed was a series of lesser returns as the band marched on. Radiohead on the other hand have 4 masterpieces, 2 of them coming post 90s. They also continue to operate as a healthy, functional and peak band in the year 2018. They've done enough. I agree judging the merits of a songwriter on its hit singles is a bit narrow minded. Songwriters like Alex Chilton, Elliott Smith, Stuart Murdoch, to name a few, are some brilliant songwriters than never had hits. On the Oasis/Radiohead subject though; I love both bands, but I think one has got a special treatment and the other not. For me they BOTH released 2 masterpieces and that's it. Post OKC Radiohead stuff is held in way too high regard by the critics, and I say that while I love KID A and most of Amnesiac. On the "who is the best songwriter of his generation" subject, except for Noel and Thom, I would like to also cite Elliott Smith, Stuart Murdoch, Billy Corgan, Stephen Malkmus and Jason Pierce. Radiohead were certainly a more consistent act. In terms of OKC records, I'd say that In Rainbows and A Pool Shaped Moon are almost unassailable. Hard to decide, as I love both Oasis and Radiohead, but I would put Thom in the same league as Noel. To me, I do give extra credit to a songwriter who's capable of maintaining a level of quality no matter the style they're writing in. Thom has the versatility that Noel lacks, with the same ability to write songs of equal quality. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 19:35:38 GMT -5
I agree judging the merits of a songwriter on its hit singles is a bit narrow minded. Songwriters like Alex Chilton, Elliott Smith, Stuart Murdoch, to name a few, are some brilliant songwriters than never had hits. On the Oasis/Radiohead subject though; I love both bands, but I think one has got a special treatment and the other not. For me they BOTH released 2 masterpieces and that's it. Post OKC Radiohead stuff is held in way too high regard by the critics, and I say that while I love KID A and most of Amnesiac. On the "who is the best songwriter of his generation" subject, except for Noel and Thom, I would like to also cite Elliott Smith, Stuart Murdoch, Billy Corgan, Stephen Malkmus and Jason Pierce. Radiohead were certainly a more consistent act. In terms of OKC records, I'd say that In Rainbows and A Pool Shaped Moon are almost unassailable. Hard to decide, as I love both Oasis and Radiohead, but I would put Thom in the same league as Noel. To me, I do give extra credit to a songwriter who's capable of maintaining a level of quality no matter the style they're writing in. Thom has the versatility that Noel lacks, with the same ability to write songs of equal quality. Oh, I don't have much problem seeing Thom Yorke in the same league (I'm not the biggest fan of the "leagues" thing though) as Noel, both wrote some of my favourite songs of all the time. On the versality subject though, I think Noel has shown that in the 90's. Columbia, Married With Children, Going Nowhere and Headshrinker (to just cite four tracks) are all very different to each other. |
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Post by spaneli on Jul 26, 2018 20:11:50 GMT -5
Radiohead were certainly a more consistent act. In terms of OKC records, I'd say that In Rainbows and A Pool Shaped Moon are almost unassailable. Hard to decide, as I love both Oasis and Radiohead, but I would put Thom in the same league as Noel. To me, I do give extra credit to a songwriter who's capable of maintaining a level of quality no matter the style they're writing in. Thom has the versatility that Noel lacks, with the same ability to write songs of equal quality. Oh, I don't have much problem seeing Thom Yorke in the same league (I'm not the biggest fan of the "leagues" thing though) as Noel, both wrote some of my favourite songs of all the time. On the versality subject though, I think Noel has shown that in the 90's. Columbia, Married With Children, Going Nowhere and Headshrinker (to just cite four tracks) are all very different to each other. Ehhhhh, I wouldn't say that. In terms of Radiohead, there's a big difference between Fake Plastic Trees and The National Anthem. I don't think Noel ever approached that gap between styles in the 90's. Maybe with Teotihuacan. |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Jul 26, 2018 20:45:50 GMT -5
Oh, I don't have much problem seeing Thom Yorke in the same league (I'm not the biggest fan of the "leagues" thing though) as Noel, both wrote some of my favourite songs of all the time. On the versality subject though, I think Noel has shown that in the 90's. Columbia, Married With Children, Going Nowhere and Headshrinker (to just cite four tracks) are all very different to each other. Ehhhhh, I wouldn't say that. In terms of Radiohead, there's a big difference between Fake Plastic Trees and The National Anthem. I don't think Noel ever approached that gap between styles in the 90's. Maybe with Teotihuacan. I’ve long considered “Everything In It’s Right Place” to be Radiohead’s “Strawberry Fields Forever”. |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Jul 26, 2018 20:48:24 GMT -5
Radiohead were certainly a more consistent act. In terms of OKC records, I'd say that In Rainbows and A Pool Shaped Moon are almost unassailable. Hard to decide, as I love both Oasis and Radiohead, but I would put Thom in the same league as Noel. To me, I do give extra credit to a songwriter who's capable of maintaining a level of quality no matter the style they're writing in. Thom has the versatility that Noel lacks, with the same ability to write songs of equal quality. Oh, I don't have much problem seeing Thom Yorke in the same league (I'm not the biggest fan of the "leagues" thing though) as Noel, both wrote some of my favourite songs of all the time. On the versality subject though, I think Noel has shown that in the 90's. Columbia, Married With Children, Going Nowhere and Headshrinker (to just cite four tracks) are all very different to each other. A better example would be Supersonic to Wonderwall to Setting Sun to teotihuacan to fuckin in the bushes. |
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Post by bt95 on Jul 27, 2018 3:08:45 GMT -5
SOTSOG was clearly Noel at his lowest eb. I happen to like the melancholy, but the songs weren't strong enough to back that up (i.e. Sunday Morning Call). I don't think any of those songs you've listed are miserable or mundane songs though. They're all tinged with the Northern arrogance and attitude. I hate to sound like a nationalist!!, but it's one of those things you kind of just get depending on where your from - I suppose that blurs my opinion a bit. When Noel sings 'I lost my faith in the summer time, cos it don't stop raining', if you've ever spent a summer in the UK (weirdly enough, just not this one currently) you'll know it's not Noel taking a philosophical outlook on the meaning of life through the weather, it's just him saying it always bloody rains. Noel's ability to make a mundane line something extraordinary and meaningful to so many people is one of his greatest talents. I just can't get into Radiohead. I like their hits, but they bore me. They always will, unless maybe one day I have the 'awakening', but bare in mind I was listening to High And Dry/Creep/Karma Police long before I started listening to Oasis properly. I'm sure they're all nice blokes, and I know for a fact they're incredibly talented musicians. But I find them dreary and dull, and I don't like the way they're hailed as the way 'that music should be' by some critics. It's nine o'clock I'm getting tired I'm sick of all my records and the clothes I bought today Am I cracking up Or just getting older? Staying in I can't be bothered Making conversation with the friends that I don't know Am I cracking up Or just getting older? And I bet that this is how life Turns out when you're finally grown And you know if this my life Sit around all day and I moan I'm halfway up to the bottom Of another bottle Of my next best favourite friend Am I cracking up Or just getting older.... But that song is hugely tinged with sarcasm. Again, maybe I'm biased, because it's one of my favourites to play and I love it when it comes on shuffle, but when it goes to that middle 8 (sit around all day and I moan) it's again Noel flippantly saying 'even if everything's going right, I'd moan anyway'. I honestly think even that's a bit deep, though. It was probably written in half-an-hour and he just chucked some words down. I just can't get into the style of Radiohead. Don't get me wrong, I listen to their songs when they come on on shuffle and don't skip (I have, off the top of my head, Creep, High And Dry, The Bends, My Iron Lung, Karma Police, Fake Plastic Trees, on my playlist) but I've never reached the point with them where I want to delve deeper into their (very accomplished) catalogue. Radiohead are an extremely talented group of musicians who do what they do very well, whether people like it or not. The dearth of massive UK guitar bands in that era following Oasis, however, for me is down in part to far less talented musicians trying to copy Radiohead (or other bands of a similar ilk). Frowning upon Oasis because of the 'lad culture' etc, whereas if they had tried to capture that initial spirit of Oasis from 94-96, they might have been onto something... It wasn't until the Arctic Monkeys and Kasabian came around (to an extent The Libs almost captured it, but in-fighting did for them) that bands started labelling Oasis' attitude (if not music) as an influence. I'd say Noel's legacy will probably be looked back on depending on how Oasis are seen at the time. Everything goes through stages. At this point in time, in the UK, Oasis/the Gallaghers (for whatever reason) are the biggest they have been in the last decade. In two or three years it could well be different, but until a new British guitar band comes through that comes close to capturing an entire generation like they did, then I can't see it changing any time soon. |
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Post by Mean Mrs. Mustard on Jul 27, 2018 5:08:11 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think Big Star is among the all time greats either. 3 amazing albums though. And The Velvet Underground ? All time greats for you or no ? Love them and they're great, but IMO they're not in that first bracket. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 6:27:35 GMT -5
Oh, I don't have much problem seeing Thom Yorke in the same league (I'm not the biggest fan of the "leagues" thing though) as Noel, both wrote some of my favourite songs of all the time. On the versality subject though, I think Noel has shown that in the 90's. Columbia, Married With Children, Going Nowhere and Headshrinker (to just cite four tracks) are all very different to each other. Ehhhhh, I wouldn't say that. In terms of Radiohead, there's a big difference between Fake Plastic Trees and The National Anthem. I don't think Noel ever approached that gap between styles in the 90's. Maybe with Teotihuacan. I was sure you were gonna nitpick on the "very different"  I haven't said Noel was as versatile as Thom, I said that he was able to write different kind of songs. Oasis wasn't an unidimensional band. Big rockers, acoustic tracks, orchestral ballads, rockers with hints of psychedelia, etc. Sure, Noel could have been more adventurous. In the end of the 90's, he could have done something special, he had the best singer of his generation with him. He missed the opportunity. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 6:28:25 GMT -5
Oh, I don't have much problem seeing Thom Yorke in the same league (I'm not the biggest fan of the "leagues" thing though) as Noel, both wrote some of my favourite songs of all the time. On the versality subject though, I think Noel has shown that in the 90's. Columbia, Married With Children, Going Nowhere and Headshrinker (to just cite four tracks) are all very different to each other. A better example would be Supersonic to Wonderwall to Setting Sun to teotihuacan to fuckin in the bushes. Yes it works too. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 6:34:41 GMT -5
3 amazing albums though. And The Velvet Underground ? All time greats for you or no ? Love them and they're great, but IMO they're not in that first bracket. What would be the first bracket for you ? |
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Post by Mean Mrs. Mustard on Jul 27, 2018 7:02:28 GMT -5
Love them and they're great, but IMO they're not in that first bracket. What would be the first bracket for you ? The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, etc. |
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Post by mossy on Jul 27, 2018 9:49:11 GMT -5
Guys, there’s some really good music out there made by people who aren’t white men with guitars...
X
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Jul 27, 2018 10:16:12 GMT -5
Guys, there’s some really good music out there made by people who aren’t white men with guitars... X Oh, hey, Moss...   |
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Jul 27, 2018 10:23:16 GMT -5
He's in the second tier, I'd say. Below Lennon / McCartney above Ray Davies. I don't really know who else would be in his tier... MAYBE Weller, but I'd say that Oasis had far more hits and socially defining tunes than The Jam ever did (though I am a 90s kid, so I wasn't there for The Jam) Weller split The Jam when he was 24 years old; in May he turned 60. He's much more than just his work with The Jam. But, yeah, he doesn't have Noel's knack for writing hits. Noel is definitely the superior melodist. But in every other way I'd say Weller has the edge on him. |
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Post by marqueemoon on Jul 27, 2018 11:07:38 GMT -5
If you put Noel's best songs against any of his contemporary's best, he'd easily win.
If you judged them based on consistency... Not quite there for Noel. If we're comparing him to Weller, Weller easily wins this category.
In terms of influence? Probably give it to Thom, as I'd argue Radiohead have influenced acts in a wide range of genres.
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Post by matt on Jul 27, 2018 14:23:39 GMT -5
If you put Noel's best songs against any of his contemporary's best, he'd easily win. If you judged them based on consistency... Not quite there for Noel. If we're comparing him to Weller, Weller easily wins this category. In terms of influence? Probably give it to Thom, as I'd argue Radiohead have influenced acts in a wide range of genres. Surely Radiohead as a group need to be added as the one major influential entity as opposed to just Thom though? Listening to Yorke’s solo effort Tomorrow’s Modern Boxes and most of it sounds like a Casio keyboard having a mid-life crisis. That said, nearly all of these writers best work is in collaboration with others. David Holmes creative direction resulted in Noel’s best solo work by far or simply just performance wise, Liam maximised the potential of his songs, while Weller happily collaborates with other songwriters. Even David Bowie had the creative assistance of the likes of Tony Visconti or Brian Eno. The Beatles - again, geniuses as a group but not as frequently evident as solo artists (not knocking it as it’s still very high standard). In fact, for a solo artist in Britain who achieved the highest status on their very own terms, I can only think of Kate Bush - wrote all her songs, produced all her own albums, created and directed her own videos. It’s noticeable then that the Americans are more prone to producing better solo bonafide geniuses who require the assistance of nobody but themselves - Dylan, Springsteen, Paul Simon in pop music (arguably better in his solo career as brilliant as Simon & Garfunkel were) or even going to genres like jazz with Miles Davis and John Coltrane stand out, whereas British jazz is all about the ensemble. |
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Post by marqueemoon on Jul 27, 2018 17:10:12 GMT -5
If you put Noel's best songs against any of his contemporary's best, he'd easily win. If you judged them based on consistency... Not quite there for Noel. If we're comparing him to Weller, Weller easily wins this category. In terms of influence? Probably give it to Thom, as I'd argue Radiohead have influenced acts in a wide range of genres. Surely Radiohead as a group need to be added as the one major influential entity as opposed to just Thom though? Listening to Yorke’s solo effort Tomorrow’s Modern Boxes and most of it sounds like a Casio keyboard having a mid-life crisis. That said, nearly all of these writers best work is in collaboration with others. David Holmes creative direction resulted in Noel’s best solo work by far or simply just performance wise, Liam maximised the potential of his songs, while Weller happily collaborates with other songwriters. Even David Bowie had the creative assistance of the likes of Tony Visconti or Brian Eno. The Beatles - again, geniuses as a group but not as frequently evident as solo artists (not knocking it as it’s still very high standard). In fact, for a solo artist in Britain who achieved the highest status on their very own terms, I can only think of Kate Bush - wrote all her songs, produced all her own albums, created and directed her own videos. It’s noticeable then that the Americans are more prone to producing better solo bonafide geniuses who require the assistance of nobody but themselves - Dylan, Springsteen, Paul Simon in pop music (arguably better in his solo career as brilliant as Simon & Garfunkel were) or even going to genres like jazz with Miles Davis and John Coltrane stand out, whereas British jazz is all about the ensemble. I very much agree with you when you say that many of these writers/musicians work best in collaboration. I was following the flow of the thread's conversation when mentioning Weller and Yorke, though I agree that they are not singular geniuses. In fact, I'd argue none of the musicians mentioned are and that's a big problem with music criticism and discussion. We are quick to elevate singular personas to the levels of genius when we fail to see that they are all standing on the shoulder of giants (to quote our Noel's incorrect quote). You mention figures like Paul Simon and Miles Davis, both hugely innovative musicians, but I very much disagree that they are "solo bonafide geniuses." Seeing Simon live this year was a treat, though Bridge Over Troubled Water sounded mightily empty without Garfunkel's soaring harmonies. Same goes for this solo work, where one of his biggest albums, Graceland, has 5 co-writes. Simply put, that album would not be what it was without huge contributions by numerous South African musicians. Davis is similar. On the Corner is one of my favorite albums by him, one of my favorite Jazz albums period, though my favorite parts of that album probably weren't performed by him. Collin Walcott's electric sitar is one of that album's defining features, as is Teo Macero's cut up production techniques. In these cases, and in many others, that singular figure may have had the vision but there wouldn't have been the same level of quality without the support of many others. It takes a village to raise a child, and it certainly takes more than one person to create some of the masterpiece songs and albums we love. Your example of Bowie is perfect. I dearly love his music, but he usually gets too much credit in my opinion. His music wouldn't be as magical without the assistance of the likes of Eno, Visconti, Mick Ronson, Carlos Alomar (truly one of the most underrated guitar players of all time), Niles Rodgers, etc. |
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Post by Let It Bleed on Jul 27, 2018 17:36:47 GMT -5
I'd much rather discuss eva's legacy..... Gracias. |
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Post by matt on Jul 27, 2018 17:45:43 GMT -5
Surely Radiohead as a group need to be added as the one major influential entity as opposed to just Thom though? Listening to Yorke’s solo effort Tomorrow’s Modern Boxes and most of it sounds like a Casio keyboard having a mid-life crisis. That said, nearly all of these writers best work is in collaboration with others. David Holmes creative direction resulted in Noel’s best solo work by far or simply just performance wise, Liam maximised the potential of his songs, while Weller happily collaborates with other songwriters. Even David Bowie had the creative assistance of the likes of Tony Visconti or Brian Eno. The Beatles - again, geniuses as a group but not as frequently evident as solo artists (not knocking it as it’s still very high standard). In fact, for a solo artist in Britain who achieved the highest status on their very own terms, I can only think of Kate Bush - wrote all her songs, produced all her own albums, created and directed her own videos. It’s noticeable then that the Americans are more prone to producing better solo bonafide geniuses who require the assistance of nobody but themselves - Dylan, Springsteen, Paul Simon in pop music (arguably better in his solo career as brilliant as Simon & Garfunkel were) or even going to genres like jazz with Miles Davis and John Coltrane stand out, whereas British jazz is all about the ensemble. I very much agree with you when you say that many of these writers/musicians work best in collaboration. I was following the flow of the thread's conversation when mentioning Weller and Yorke, though I agree that they are not singular geniuses. In fact, I'd argue none of the musicians mentioned are and that's a big problem with music criticism and discussion. We are quick to elevate singular personas to the levels of genius when we fail to see that they are all standing on the shoulder of giants (to quote our Noel's incorrect quote). You mention figures like Paul Simon and Miles Davis, both hugely innovative musicians, but I very much disagree that they are "solo bonafide geniuses." Seeing Simon live this year was a treat, though Bridge Over Troubled Water sounded mightily empty without Garfunkel's soaring harmonies. Same goes for this solo work, where one of his biggest albums, Graceland, has 5 co-writes. Simply put, that album would not be what it was without huge contributions by numerous South African musicians. Davis is similar. On the Corner is one of my favorite albums by him, one of my favorite Jazz albums period, though my favorite parts of that album probably weren't performed by him. Collin Walcott's electric sitar is one of that album's defining features, as is Teo Macero's cut up production techniques. In these cases, and in many others, that singular figure may have had the vision but there wouldn't have been the same level of quality without the support of many others. It takes a village to raise a child, and it certainly takes more than one person to create some of the masterpiece songs and albums we love. Your example of Bowie is perfect. I dearly love his music, but he usually gets too much credit in my opinion. His music wouldn't be as magical without the assistance of the likes of Eno, Visconti, Mick Ronson, Carlos Alomar (truly one of the most underrated guitar players of all time), Niles Rodgers, etc. Had no idea Graceland was co-written. Ladysmith Black Mambazo I guess? I agree with your Miles Davis assertion though, jazz needs a talented ensemble to sound write, but he really had the vision to take the form of music in different directions - i.e. Bitches Brew. |
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Post by Let It Bleed on Jul 27, 2018 18:02:34 GMT -5
Kurt Cobian wrote all the music for Nirvãna, bar a few lesser known bongs.....it's amazing the wealth his family and band members have made and have; they should wake up every day and think of him.....
I almost picked up a Miles Davis album from the library today......didn't think Miles Davis would ever be mentioned in this thread, trampoline.
Thanks.
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5