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Post by Let It Bleed on Jan 4, 2018 19:16:35 GMT -5
This place always entertains me....
Thanks.
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Post by AdidasNG72 on Jan 4, 2018 19:25:52 GMT -5
Great read, great work and lucky you that you get to meet our idols and heroes up close and personal. Ignore the usual dissenting BS on here from various members who claim they know more about Liam and Noel than you do. Put it down to pure old jealousy or resenting bitterness. The way some talk on here, it sounds they know Noel and Liam better than they know themselves at times....
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Jan 4, 2018 19:26:24 GMT -5
Great read, great work and lucky you that you get to meet our idols and heroes up close and personal. Ignore the usual dissenting BS on here from various members who claim they know more about Liam and Noel than you do. Put it down to pure old jealousy or resenting bitterness. The way some talk on here, it sounds they know Noel and Liam better than they know themselves at times.... Who has done that?
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Post by spaneli on Jan 4, 2018 19:26:53 GMT -5
Based on what? I've interviewed Noel a bunch of times at this point. He's pretty comfortable with me. I've also been around him enough to read when he's "selling" and when he's sincere. This was said in a pretty thoughtful manner and seemed like an honest memory. He almost seemed wistful or sad at the memory. So given that I was speaking to him directly and was able to read his intent directly, what are you basing your opinion on? Not trying to be flame-y, just curious. Fair play you have met him more than any of us but interviewing a bloke a few times who is a genius yarn spinner and professional bullshitter to the press doesn't necessarily give you a window to the soul. He's had many people, believing many different things at many different times. I think you're missing a dimension of Jeff's explanation. He didn't soley say that because he's met him a few times that he has a window to Noel's "soul," I'm not even sure if he claimed that. He said that there's a difference between how something reads in print and actually taking to someone in person and gauging their reaction. That's a valid point, which gets made on here every time someone misinterprets a quote by Noel or Liam (And many make that point without the benefit of having talked to either a few times).
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Jan 4, 2018 19:39:35 GMT -5
Fair play you have met him more than any of us but interviewing a bloke a few times who is a genius yarn spinner and professional bullshitter to the press doesn't necessarily give you a window to the soul. He's had many people, believing many different things at many different times. I think you're missing a dimension of Jeff's explanation. He didn't soley say that because he's met him a few times that he has a window to Noel's "soul," I'm not even sure if he claimed that. He said that there's a difference between how something reads in print and actually taking to someone in person and gauging their reaction. That's a valid point, which gets made on here every time someone misinterprets a quote by Noel or Liam (And many make that point without the benefit of having talked to either a few times). I've watched Noel give various answers over the years and while it might not be the same as sitting opposite him he's very convincing. He's very good at it. I don't know about you Spaneli but there's a few people I've known since I was a kid who I still don't know how much they say is true or how much they exaggerate.
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Post by themanwithnoname on Jan 4, 2018 20:08:44 GMT -5
I'm almost certain this didn't happen. Based on what? I've interviewed Noel a bunch of times at this point. He's pretty comfortable with me. I've also been around him enough to read when he's "selling" and when he's sincere. This was said in a pretty thoughtful manner and seemed like an honest memory. He almost seemed wistful or sad at the memory. So given that I was speaking to him directly and was able to read his intent directly, what are you basing your opinion on? Not trying to be flame-y, just curious. Because Liam thinks 'quirky' is the top line on a computer keyboard.
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Post by mossy on Jan 4, 2018 21:36:54 GMT -5
It amuses me how Noel talks at length about how he collaborated with Holmes, describing how Holmes would bring in a sample to kick off Holy Mountain, or how Holmes would tell him to write a song in the style of X, or tell him to rewrite choruses, or tell the drummer what to play, or stay in the studio when Noel had gone home to carry on working on loops and arrangements...
... only then to slag off ALL artists who co-write.
It’s the very definition of doublethink.
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Post by AdidasNG72 on Jan 5, 2018 2:49:44 GMT -5
Great read, great work and lucky you that you get to meet our idols and heroes up close and personal. Ignore the usual dissenting BS on here from various members who claim they know more about Liam and Noel than you do. Put it down to pure old jealousy or resenting bitterness. The way some talk on here, it sounds they know Noel and Liam better than they know themselves at times.... Who has done that? This forum is littered with people who look in-depth and under a microscope at every single tweet Liam says, or every throw away remark Noel says in an interview as absolute gospel truth at times, and believe this sums them up as people, and use it as a way to either chastise them, or use it to chastise the other brother. And it doesn't stop there. Wives and daughters get thrown into the mix too for good measure. `She said this. How dare she.' `Well yes, but he did say that first.' `So what, he is always lying. He's a born liar...' etc. etc. That's the gist of usually how it goes, even though I'm not quoting anyone in particular there. And don't bother asking me to start quoting specific examples of this. You're an intelligent lad so you know what I am on about. The forum is literally worn out and exhausted by just about every thread turning into this behaviour. A guy comes on here to post an interview he has done with NG, and instead of everyone giving the guy a pat on the back for doing this, it turns into the usual `NG is lying through his back teeth again...' type comments. Maybe Noel was lying to this interviewer, maybe he wasn't. Maybe behind closed doors he doesn't BS as much as he does to the outside world at press conferences or TV interviews. Who knows. We weren't there, but he was. For once I would rather take on face value someone who actually has met the guy one-on-one on numerous occasions, than forum members who have never met him, but formed their opinions solely on tweets, throwaway remarks and silly videos of Noel saying he hates Christmas.
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Post by AdidasNG72 on Jan 5, 2018 3:04:30 GMT -5
It amuses me how Noel talks at length about how he collaborated with Holmes, describing how Holmes would bring in a sample to kick off Holy Mountain, or how Holmes would tell him to write a song in the style of X, or tell him to rewrite choruses, or tell the drummer what to play, or stay in the studio when Noel had gone home to carry on working on loops and arrangements... ... only then to slag off ALL artists who co-write. It’s the very definition of doublethink. Yes I know where you are going with this. I have thought this too recently. However, I think NG looks at co-writing as someone who actually co-writes the songs themselves - writing lyrics, playing an instrument, strumming along and changing a few chords themselves, etc. As Lennon had a half-finished song, Paul would fill it in with something he had written. That to me defines `co-writing.' It sounds to me Holmes nudged NG in the right direction, suggested things to him, and then NG would go off and play with it, see if it would develop into anything more. He would still write the lyrics and chords. The only thing Holmes would do afterwards is play with the vibe of the song, the sounds, changing the mix slightly, adding effects or alarm bells, etc. Every interview Noel says on this subject pretty much illustrates this. I guess there are different arguments to be had in what defines co-writing. As I am not a songwriter myself, I don't have a strong opinion on it.
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Post by mossy on Jan 5, 2018 5:17:14 GMT -5
It amuses me how Noel talks at length about how he collaborated with Holmes, describing how Holmes would bring in a sample to kick off Holy Mountain, or how Holmes would tell him to write a song in the style of X, or tell him to rewrite choruses, or tell the drummer what to play, or stay in the studio when Noel had gone home to carry on working on loops and arrangements... ... only then to slag off ALL artists who co-write. It’s the very definition of doublethink. Yes I know where you are going with this. I have thought this too recently. However, I think NG looks at co-writing as someone who actually co-writes the songs themselves - writing lyrics, playing an instrument, strumming along and changing a few chords themselves, etc. As Lennon had a half-finished song, Paul would fill it in with something he had written. That to me defines `co-writing.' It sounds to me Holmes nudged NG in the right direction, suggested things to him, and then NG would go off and play with it, see if it would develop into anything more. He would still write the lyrics and chords. The only thing Holmes would do afterwards is play with the vibe of the song, the sounds, changing the mix slightly, adding effects or alarm bells, etc. Every interview Noel says on this subject pretty much illustrates this. I guess there are different arguments to be had in what defines co-writing. As I am not a songwriter myself, I don't have a strong opinion on it. Yes, I don’t think there’s a simple definition of what constitutes co-writing. What one artist would consider a co-write another may not. Take the Right Stuff for example. Noel thinks he wrote that entirely himself. The Amorphous Androgynous think they co-wrote it. They played instruments, so are closer to your definition of co-writing above. My personal opinion having heard both their back catalogues up to that point is that the AA are probably right. Given that whole AA debacle, I imagine Noel had a clear contract with Holmes up front saying “Noelly G gets sole songwriting credits for these songs written in the studio”. Holmes is clearly happy being defined as a producer and was happy with that arrangement. Another example is What A Life. I don’t believe Noel has ever had a strong dancey beat in one of his own songs before. That beat is a big part of what makes What A Life and was created by someone else (the engineer I believe). I’m sure anyone who creates a beat for Noel’s beloved Kanye would get credited - because hip hop artists understand the importance of beats. Now one anecdote Noel has told many times is where he was at an awards ceremony and Emeli Sandé’s team went up for a writing award and he couldn’t believe it. One person did the beats, another bass, another melody etc. He forgets when telling that anecdote that his engineer and Holmes have made beats for him. TL;DR Summary: Anyway, the point I’m making is Noel has had some help along the way, whether from the AA, Holmes or engineers writing drum beats for him. He may not consider that help co-writing, but other artists and those songwriting teams he slags off would likely consider it co-writing.
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Post by Mean Mrs. Mustard on Jan 5, 2018 6:07:45 GMT -5
It amuses me how Noel talks at length about how he collaborated with Holmes, describing how Holmes would bring in a sample to kick off Holy Mountain, or how Holmes would tell him to write a song in the style of X, or tell him to rewrite choruses, or tell the drummer what to play, or stay in the studio when Noel had gone home to carry on working on loops and arrangements... ... only then to slag off ALL artists who co-write. It’s the very definition of doublethink. Where is the line between co-writing and co-producing? Have always found the difference a bit vague.
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Post by mossy on Jan 5, 2018 6:26:29 GMT -5
It amuses me how Noel talks at length about how he collaborated with Holmes, describing how Holmes would bring in a sample to kick off Holy Mountain, or how Holmes would tell him to write a song in the style of X, or tell him to rewrite choruses, or tell the drummer what to play, or stay in the studio when Noel had gone home to carry on working on loops and arrangements... ... only then to slag off ALL artists who co-write. It’s the very definition of doublethink. Where is the line between co-writing and co-producing? Have always found the difference a bit vague. Yeah it’s all very vague, which is why Noel can think one thing, the AA another, and we can all argue about it endlessly here :-) I think even the term “producer” itself is pretty vague and covers a wide range of things. Some producers seem to do nothing hands on with the music itself, rather they coach the artist. Others, especially in hip hop, write beats etc. It’s that end of the producing spectrum where co-writing credits become justified. Holmes seems to have been a great coach but definitely brought samples and beats to the table too. I think it’s down to the artists and producers themselves to agree what constitutes what with regards to formal credits though. For example, Lennon-McCartney and Beady Eye’s LAG team had co-writing agreements when we know there are songs on which they didn’t really co-write. What’s formally credited doesn’t always reflect what actually happened in the studio.
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Post by AdidasNG72 on Jan 5, 2018 8:42:24 GMT -5
Where is the line between co-writing and co-producing? Have always found the difference a bit vague. Yeah it’s all very vague, which is why Noel can think one thing, the AA another, and we can all argue about it endlessly here :-) I think even the term “producer” itself is pretty vague and covers a wide range of things. Some producers seem to do nothing hands on with the music itself, rather they coach the artist. Others, especially in hip hop, write beats etc. It’s that end of the producing spectrum where co-writing credits become justified. Holmes seems to have been a great coach but definitely brought samples and beats to the table too. I think it’s down to the artists and producers themselves to agree what constitutes what with regards to formal credits though. For example, Lennon-McCartney and Beady Eye’s LAG team had co-writing agreements when we know there are songs on which they didn’t really co-write. What’s formally credited doesn’t always reflect what actually happened in the studio. I'm not a songwriter so its hard for me to assume this, but I'm guessing the hard work is writing a song from scratch. Melody, lyrics, chorus, etc. and the easier part is the tweaking of what the sound is like - additional drumbeats, added orchestra, alarm bells etc. Owen Morris definitely added a lot to the original Oasis sound, but I never would have thought he would deserve a co-writing credit. Likewise, I think Holmes has added a lot to the sound of this new record, but he doesn't deserve a co-writing credit. Therefore I understand where Noel is coming from. Writing a song is a gift, and he has it (in abundance). He doesn't need any co-writer/sound engineer to help him in that department. All Noel does is go off and figure out the chords on his guitar, then start writing the lyrics. The added input from Holmes was suggesting ideas to Noel, nothing more than that during the writing process, and pushing Noel into a direction he wanted to go anyway.
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Post by mossy on Jan 5, 2018 9:11:13 GMT -5
Yeah it’s all very vague, which is why Noel can think one thing, the AA another, and we can all argue about it endlessly here :-) I think even the term “producer” itself is pretty vague and covers a wide range of things. Some producers seem to do nothing hands on with the music itself, rather they coach the artist. Others, especially in hip hop, write beats etc. It’s that end of the producing spectrum where co-writing credits become justified. Holmes seems to have been a great coach but definitely brought samples and beats to the table too. I think it’s down to the artists and producers themselves to agree what constitutes what with regards to formal credits though. For example, Lennon-McCartney and Beady Eye’s LAG team had co-writing agreements when we know there are songs on which they didn’t really co-write. What’s formally credited doesn’t always reflect what actually happened in the studio. I'm not a songwriter so its hard for me to assume this, but I'm guessing the hard work is writing a song from scratch. Melody, lyrics, chorus, etc. and the easier part is the tweaking of what the sound is like - additional drumbeats, added orchestra, alarm bells etc. Owen Morris definitely added a lot to the original Oasis sound, but I never would have thought he would deserve a co-writing credit. Likewise, I think Holmes has added a lot to the sound of this new record, but he doesn't deserve a co-writing credit. Therefore I understand where Noel is coming from. Writing a song is a gift, and he has it (in abundance). He doesn't need any co-writer/sound engineer to help him in that department. All Noel does is go off and figure out the chords on his guitar, then start writing the lyrics. The added input from Holmes was suggesting ideas to Noel, nothing more than that during the writing process, and pushing Noel into a direction he wanted to go anyway. That’s an assumption. We weren’t in the studio so no-one can say for sure. But we know Holmes added significant samples and beats which would be enough for a formal credit for other artists/genres. My only point has been it is ironic Noel showing disdain for people who co-write (which he does mainly so he can dig at Liam) when he has had significant help himself. WBTM would not have happened without Holmes. The Right Stuff would not have happened without the AA.
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Post by AdidasNG72 on Jan 5, 2018 9:34:10 GMT -5
I'm not a songwriter so its hard for me to assume this, but I'm guessing the hard work is writing a song from scratch. Melody, lyrics, chorus, etc. and the easier part is the tweaking of what the sound is like - additional drumbeats, added orchestra, alarm bells etc. Owen Morris definitely added a lot to the original Oasis sound, but I never would have thought he would deserve a co-writing credit. Likewise, I think Holmes has added a lot to the sound of this new record, but he doesn't deserve a co-writing credit. Therefore I understand where Noel is coming from. Writing a song is a gift, and he has it (in abundance). He doesn't need any co-writer/sound engineer to help him in that department. All Noel does is go off and figure out the chords on his guitar, then start writing the lyrics. The added input from Holmes was suggesting ideas to Noel, nothing more than that during the writing process, and pushing Noel into a direction he wanted to go anyway. That’s an assumption. We weren’t in the studio so no-one can say for sure. But we know Holmes added significant samples and beats which would be enough for a formal credit for other artists/genres. My only point has been it is ironic Noel showing disdain for people who co-write (which he does mainly so he can dig at Liam) when he has had significant help himself. WBTM would not have happened without Holmes. The Right Stuff would not have happened without the AA. I think its fair to say Holmes deserves a lot of credit for the sound of WBTM, but no more than Owen Morris deserves a lot of credit for the early sound of Oasis. From what we have learned listening to NG's recent interviews, it appears as though Holmes was always suggesting things to Noel - `How about this type of sound?' `Do you think you should try something like that?' etc. during the creative part, but NG would have final say on everything. I'm guessing Noel doesn't see that kind of input (suggestions or adding to the mix) having the same importance as writing a song from scratch. Melody, chorus, lyrics, etc. is where its always been at for him, and is why he has digs at other musicians who do need this kind of help. I guess it depends on the genre too. If the song is all about the mix, and little to do with traditional songwriting composition, then there will be co-writing credits all round for that kind of music. But as we know, this type is not Noel's forte, who is a traditional songwriter.
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Post by Mean Mrs. Mustard on Jan 5, 2018 9:47:34 GMT -5
I can sorta understand both sides. Writing the song, the melody and the lyrics is probably the hardest part of the song, and that's it's skeleton.
On the other hand, adding beats and samples really make the song what it is. They flesh it out and you could make an argument for giving someone co-writing credits.
I wouldn't compare Holmes to Morris, as I think their roles in the studio were quite different from each other. I also don't think David Holmes lost a lot of sleep over not having writing credits. He probably got a nice financial compensation.
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Post by mossy on Jan 5, 2018 10:04:03 GMT -5
That’s an assumption. We weren’t in the studio so no-one can say for sure. But we know Holmes added significant samples and beats which would be enough for a formal credit for other artists/genres. My only point has been it is ironic Noel showing disdain for people who co-write (which he does mainly so he can dig at Liam) when he has had significant help himself. WBTM would not have happened without Holmes. The Right Stuff would not have happened without the AA. I think its fair to say Holmes deserves a lot of credit for the sound of WBTM, but no more than Owen Morris deserves a lot of credit for the early sound of Oasis. From what we have learned listening to NG's recent interviews, it appears as though Holmes was always suggesting things to Noel - `How about this type of sound?' `Do you think you should try something like that?' etc. during the creative part, but NG would have final say on everything.I'm guessing Noel doesn't see that kind of input (suggestions or adding to the mix) having the same importance as writing a song from scratch. Melody, chorus, lyrics, etc. is where its always been at for him, and is why he has digs at other musicians who do need this kind of help. I guess it depends on the genre too. If the song is all about the mix, and little to do with traditional songwriting composition, then there will be co-writing credits all round for that kind of music. But as we know, this type is not Noel's forte, who is a traditional songwriter. This isn’t actually true. They agreed no song would go on the album unless both Noel AND Holmes were 100% happy with it. So Holmes could veto songs from appearing on the album. Also, Noel was happy with certain choruses and lyrics and would have been happy to stop there but Holmes made him rewrite them. Sounds like Noel gave up way more control to Holmes than he ever did to Morris. And from what I can tell Holmes initiated Holy Mountain by bringing in the flute sample and getting Noel to write over the top of it. HM would never have existed without Holmes. That can’t be said of anything Morris produced.
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Post by shinpad on Jan 5, 2018 10:05:46 GMT -5
Not only can I not picture Noel saying "I like quirky and weird" to Liam in studio, I think Noel's entire career and taste in music as reflected in interviews his whole life shows that he doesn't really like "quirky and weird". It's not a knock on him, but his (like Liam's) musical interests have always been pretty straightforward.
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Post by AdidasNG72 on Jan 5, 2018 10:25:00 GMT -5
I think its fair to say Holmes deserves a lot of credit for the sound of WBTM, but no more than Owen Morris deserves a lot of credit for the early sound of Oasis. From what we have learned listening to NG's recent interviews, it appears as though Holmes was always suggesting things to Noel - `How about this type of sound?' `Do you think you should try something like that?' etc. during the creative part, but NG would have final say on everything.I'm guessing Noel doesn't see that kind of input (suggestions or adding to the mix) having the same importance as writing a song from scratch. Melody, chorus, lyrics, etc. is where its always been at for him, and is why he has digs at other musicians who do need this kind of help. I guess it depends on the genre too. If the song is all about the mix, and little to do with traditional songwriting composition, then there will be co-writing credits all round for that kind of music. But as we know, this type is not Noel's forte, who is a traditional songwriter. This isn’t actually true. They agreed no song would go on the album unless both Noel AND Holmes were 100% happy with it. So Holmes could veto songs from appearing on the album. Also, Noel was happy with certain choruses and lyrics and would have been happy to stop there but Holmes made him rewrite them. Sounds like Noel gave up way more control to Holmes than he ever did to Morris. And from what I can tell Holmes initiated Holy Mountain by bringing in the flute sample and getting Noel to write over the top of it. HM would never have existed without Holmes. That can’t be said of anything Morris produced. Yes fair enough. I'm probably doing Holmes a disservice by comparing his role to Morris.
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Post by AdidasNG72 on Jan 5, 2018 10:29:04 GMT -5
Not only can I not picture Noel saying "I like quirky and weird" to Liam in studio, I think Noel's entire career and taste in music as reflected in interviews his whole life shows that he doesn't really like "quirky and weird". It's not a knock on him, but his (like Liam's) musical interests have always been pretty straightforward. Well he may have still said it. We'll never know. Not sure on NG having straightforward music taste though. Some tracks he has selected in the past as his favourites are pretty way out. Even a few on here I found a little strange for me - www.discogs.com/Various-Well-All-Right/release/3075188
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Post by mossy on Jan 5, 2018 10:42:49 GMT -5
Not only can I not picture Noel saying "I like quirky and weird" to Liam in studio, I think Noel's entire career and taste in music as reflected in interviews his whole life shows that he doesn't really like "quirky and weird". It's not a knock on him, but his (like Liam's) musical interests have always been pretty straightforward. Well he may have still said it. We'll never know. Not sure on NG having straightforward music taste though. Some tracks he has selected in the past as his favourites are pretty way out. Even a few on here I found a little strange for me - www.discogs.com/Various-Well-All-Right/release/3075188Yes I think Noel has a pretty wide taste in music, he’s just not always been able to translate it into his own songs. He tried to do it with the AA and has now achieved it with Holmes. Here’s to him spreading his wings more in the future :-)
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Post by mossy on Jan 5, 2018 10:44:07 GMT -5
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Post by shinpad on Jan 5, 2018 10:49:39 GMT -5
Not only can I not picture Noel saying "I like quirky and weird" to Liam in studio, I think Noel's entire career and taste in music as reflected in interviews his whole life shows that he doesn't really like "quirky and weird". It's not a knock on him, but his (like Liam's) musical interests have always been pretty straightforward. Well he may have still said it. We'll never know. Not sure on NG having straightforward music taste though. Some tracks he has selected in the past as his favourites are pretty way out. Even a few on here I found a little strange for me - www.discogs.com/Various-Well-All-Right/release/3075188Thanks for that, I'll have to give a listen to some of those.
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Post by dadrocker on Jan 5, 2018 12:07:45 GMT -5
This is the most interesting part and no is talking about it. Fucking awesome! Let's hope he keeps his word.
also - great interviews, thanks for posting!
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Post by AdidasNG72 on Jan 5, 2018 12:58:42 GMT -5
This is the most interesting part and no is talking about it. Fucking awesome! Let's hope he keeps his word. also - great interviews, thanks for posting! Its typical of this forum these days. Anything mildly interesting said by Noel is lost with one throwaway comment about Liam, which is wildly pounced on in furious anger, put under the spotlight, then put under a microscope, dissected, probed, analysed to death from all angles for any hidden meanings, and then finally discarded as just another outlandish lie by Noel, but all the while taking deep personal offence by the nasty, hurtful comment. The rest of the interview can go take a flying jump once a negative Liam comment is thrown into the mix. Throw in a `Parka Monkey' too for good measure, then relax, sit back and watch the fireworks explode. It makes the Liam Lovers/Noel Haters feel much more secure in their belief that NG is nothing but an out-and-out born liar, and he would never ever really say anything so preposterous about `Are Kid'.
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