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Post by matt on Dec 12, 2019 17:11:21 GMT -5
Fuck this, bastards, utter fucking bastards.
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Post by leron on Dec 12, 2019 17:20:41 GMT -5
This is really sad and I'm not even English Some people are blind
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Post by mystoryisgory on Dec 12, 2019 17:24:33 GMT -5
86 seats? Fucking hell, that's a massive majority. What the fuck went wrong?
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Post by globe on Dec 12, 2019 17:29:29 GMT -5
I’m so glad we voted No in 2014. Better together eh.
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Dec 12, 2019 17:38:34 GMT -5
I hope you lot get another vote. I really do, leave this utter shit show of a union.
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Post by batfink30 on Dec 12, 2019 18:19:11 GMT -5
Jesus. What a catastrophe. RIP UK.
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Dec 12, 2019 20:54:23 GMT -5
I'm from the south but generally preferred being in the north of England but for the next couple of days. Fuck you lot.
The Sunderland seat where Nissan is based who have said they'll leave because of brexit almost voted for brexit. The most incredible example of turkey's voting for xmas i've ever seen.
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Post by Manualex on Dec 12, 2019 21:28:11 GMT -5
Honestly this result should surprise no one.
I think Brexit is a huge mistake sold to the voters based on false promises and lies. But that's really the only thing that this election was about, and there was no clear "Second Referendum supporting Remain" Labour to counter the "Get Brexit Done" Tories.
Corbyn is a uniquely bad leader for Labour to run in a campaign against Brexit, because he has always wanted Brexit, just on his own terms.
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 13, 2019 0:06:54 GMT -5
Honestly this result should surprise no one. I think Brexit is a huge mistake sold to the voters based on false promises and lies. But that's really the only thing that this election was about, and there was no clear "Second Referendum supporting Remain" Labour to counter the "Get Brexit Done" Tories. Corbyn is a uniquely bad leader for Labour to run in a campaign against Brexit, because he has always wanted Brexit, just on his own terms. We have to peel back the logic here: Labour lost not because people came out and backed the Tories, but because every Leave-supporting Labour voter stayed at home. Labour should have backed a jobs-first Brexit. That much is obvious. But here's the big question: Why did so many working people think that Brexit mattered more than austerity, homelessness, the minimum wage, the NHS, or climate change?A few answers I can see: 1) It was symbolic. Working people finally had a chance to make themselves heard in the EU Referendum, and Labour have done a great job making them feel ignored since. That's a feeling that goes beyond logic. For many people, it's better to be robbed by a Tory who can look you in the eye than aided by a Labour man who can't. 2) The Billionaire media recognised the threat Corbyn posed in 2017, and doubled-down. Their propaganda campaign has been vicious. They've managed to turn the name of a senior politician who's been fighting against racism and for working people for decades, a peace-loving vegetarian jam-maker, into a dirty word. For many, you just can't vote for Corbyn. They don't quite know to explain why, but they feel it. That's what propaganda does. 3) The Billionaires have also put massive amounts of attention on Brexit. They've made it the most important issue. There are millions of people with family being treated by the NHS, with kids working less than minimum wage, with homeless people sleeping in the streets where they do their shopping, who voted Tory because they'd Get Brexit Done. And that's what matters, after all. The result is that Labour have been smashed. I struggle to see them recovering from this before 2029. So, what's the answer? You could break up the media conglomerates. you could commit to electoral reform, but none of that will work in the long term. We need to replace capitalism with workplace democracy. It might sound far-fetched, but it is simply the only way. Until working people are democratically in charge of what we produce, where and how we produce it, and what we do with the profits, there will be no democracy. The best you will be able to hope for a Blairite Labour victory ten years from now. You might call me unrealistic, or a fantasist, but the truth is that this is the cold, hard-headed realisation that since 1979, and while the current worker-owner dynamic remains, no government that does not serve billionaires first and foremost will be allowed to come to power. If the everyday people who worked in media democratically controlled them, there would be no incentive to demonize Corbyn or to amplify Brexit. If the everyday people who worked in corporations democratically ran them, there would be no incentive to donate billions to the Tory party. Climate change, homelessness, austerity, all of these things disappear when you replace the capitalist production method with worker control. Sooner or later, we have to realise that we need workplace democracy.
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Post by mimmihopps on Dec 13, 2019 0:51:26 GMT -5
Sad news.
I could be in the UK within an hour, yet I feel the distance more than ever now.
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Post by globe on Dec 13, 2019 2:10:56 GMT -5
Sad news. I could be in the UK within an hour, yet I feel the distance more than ever now. You and all our other European friends will always be welcome in Scotland.
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 13, 2019 2:51:02 GMT -5
The key statistic that could have predicted this election (other than the fact that Murdoch always gets who he wants) is that although the Brexit vote was 51/49, the vote for leave won in 400 seats.
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Post by globe on Dec 13, 2019 3:04:58 GMT -5
LOL at the DUP btw. Now more nationalist/republican MPs in NI than unionist.
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 13, 2019 3:16:48 GMT -5
LOL at the DUP btw. Now more nationalist/republican MPs in NI than unionist. If there's one thing you can trust Tory majorities to do, it's break up unions.
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Howdo
Oasis Roadie
Listen kids, i'd rather walk!
Posts: 477
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Post by Howdo on Dec 13, 2019 3:53:17 GMT -5
86 seats? Fucking hell, that's a massive majority. What the fuck went wrong? Jeremy Corbyn, that's what went wrong. I've lived in an old mining city and the surrounding areas all my life, we have always been Labour no matter what but this election has been so different. 63% of the constituents of my area voted to leave the EU but our MP has fought tooth and nail to block us leaving so our MP isn't speaking for us all. The people around my area saw this as a stab in the back and before all the Brexit stuff even started if you would have told me The Tories would have got in, I would have laughed at you. In the pubs and clubs people couldn't stand Corbyn, couldn't stand our local MP and wanted to leave the EU so that's why they backed The Tories. For the record, I didn't vote in the 2016 referendum and I couldn't bring myself to vote for either Labour or Tories in this election as I don't like either these days, well i've never liked The Tories anyway! There would be no real winner whoever won this election, Labour had no direction so they was never going to be a real threat to The Tories, the only reason Labour got as many votes as they did because they were the most realistic to stop The Tories getting a majority. We will always be in Europe no matter what, so no referendum will ever change that.
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Post by leron on Dec 13, 2019 3:57:02 GMT -5
People will know who they voted for when it will be too late I don't know what's wrong with this world today.. Trump, Salvini, Johnson etc.. They just foster a politics of hate and division. Wake up people
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 13, 2019 3:59:22 GMT -5
86 seats? Fucking hell, that's a massive majority. What the fuck went wrong? Jeremy Corbyn, that's what went wrong. I've lived in an old mining city and the surrounding areas all my life, we have always been Labour no matter what but this election has been so different. 63% of the constituents of my area voted to leave the EU but our MP has fought tooth and nail to block us leaving so our MP isn't speaking for us all. The people around my area saw this as a stab in the back and before all the Brexit stuff even started if you would have told me The Tories would have got in, I would have laughed at you. In the pubs and clubs people couldn't stand Corbyn, couldn't stand our local MP and wanted to leave the EU so that's why they backed The Tories. For the record, I didn't vote in the 2016 referendum and I couldn't bring myself to vote for either Labour or Tories in this election as I don't like either these days, well i've never liked The Tories anyway! There would be no real winner whoever won this election, Labour had no direction so they was never going to be a real threat to The Tories, the only reason Labour got as many votes as they did because they were the most realistic to stop The Tories getting a majority. We will always be in Europe no matter what, so no referendum will ever change that. To pin the blame on Corbyn as an individual is short-sighted. The truth is that no leader, not the most glitteringly charming down-to-earth strong-willed fantasy you could dream up, was going to win this election. The conglomerate media leaders realised that Labour's economic policies were popular in 2017, and doubled-down on making sure the election was about Brexit, and Corbyn being whatever they wanted. Terrorist, danger to the UK, whatever nonsense looks best on The Sun front cover. Labour would have done better with a better leader, but they wouldn't win. If the media was ran democratically, the defining story of this campaign would have been Friends of the Earth finding the Tory climate-change policy to be by some distance the worse. However since it's under the control of billionaires, as most things are, any election where you're hoping to bring pro-worker economic policy to bear is over before it's begun.
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Howdo
Oasis Roadie
Listen kids, i'd rather walk!
Posts: 477
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Post by Howdo on Dec 13, 2019 4:32:43 GMT -5
Jeremy Corbyn, that's what went wrong. I've lived in an old mining city and the surrounding areas all my life, we have always been Labour no matter what but this election has been so different. 63% of the constituents of my area voted to leave the EU but our MP has fought tooth and nail to block us leaving so our MP isn't speaking for us all. The people around my area saw this as a stab in the back and before all the Brexit stuff even started if you would have told me The Tories would have got in, I would have laughed at you. In the pubs and clubs people couldn't stand Corbyn, couldn't stand our local MP and wanted to leave the EU so that's why they backed The Tories. For the record, I didn't vote in the 2016 referendum and I couldn't bring myself to vote for either Labour or Tories in this election as I don't like either these days, well i've never liked The Tories anyway! There would be no real winner whoever won this election, Labour had no direction so they was never going to be a real threat to The Tories, the only reason Labour got as many votes as they did because they were the most realistic to stop The Tories getting a majority. We will always be in Europe no matter what, so no referendum will ever change that. To pin the blame on Corbyn as an individual is short-sighted. The truth is that no leader, not the most glitteringly charming down-to-earth strong-willed fantasy you could dream up, was going to win this election. The conglomerate media leaders realised that Labour's economic policies were popular in 2017, and doubled-down on making sure the election was about Brexit, and Corbyn being whatever they wanted. Terrorist, danger to the UK, whatever nonsense looks best on The Sun front cover. Labour would have done better with a better leader, but they wouldn't win. If the media was ran democratically, the defining story of this campaign would have been Friends of the Earth finding the Tory climate-change policy to be by some distance the worse. However since it's under the control of billionaires, as most things are, any election where you're hoping to bring pro-worker economic policy to bear is over before it's begun. If Labour had a realistic manifesto then of course they would have stood a chance, but the most important topic around this election was Brexit and for Labour to come and say they were neutral was their first big mistake. I'm not a fan of Corbyn but i'm also no fan of Boris. I watched the early debates as I was genuinely undecided on who to vote for but after watching that, it was clear I couldn't vote for either so I went for the Green Party as I liked what I read about them and they didn't force things down my throat all the time. I've been hounded by too many people from Labour and Tories, and was even tempted to headbutt one of them the other week when they stood in my way and was asking me who I was voting for, All the media has been biased through this election depending on who they follow, the Daily Mirror for example has been anti Tory, Channel 4 have been accused of having it in for them as well. Then, like you say The Sun has had it in for Labour amongst other newspapers. Labour went for the millionaires tho by trying to tax them higher, rightly or wrongly they would have took their money and their companies out of the UK if Labour would have got in then it would have been the working people that would have to foot the tax bill of all the promises they had made. If you look at them trying to make it a 4 day working week, don;'t get me wrong that sounds cool but in reality how would it work? My company struggles on 5 day working weeks so a 4 day working week would see us go under in the next year or 2 for sure. I truly hope Labour can get back to what it was, and hopefully they take note of their own motto, "Time For Real Change"
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 13, 2019 5:00:02 GMT -5
To pin the blame on Corbyn as an individual is short-sighted. The truth is that no leader, not the most glitteringly charming down-to-earth strong-willed fantasy you could dream up, was going to win this election. The conglomerate media leaders realised that Labour's economic policies were popular in 2017, and doubled-down on making sure the election was about Brexit, and Corbyn being whatever they wanted. Terrorist, danger to the UK, whatever nonsense looks best on The Sun front cover. Labour would have done better with a better leader, but they wouldn't win. If the media was ran democratically, the defining story of this campaign would have been Friends of the Earth finding the Tory climate-change policy to be by some distance the worse. However since it's under the control of billionaires, as most things are, any election where you're hoping to bring pro-worker economic policy to bear is over before it's begun. If Labour had a realistic manifesto then of course they would have stood a chance, but the most important topic around this election was Brexit and for Labour to come and say they were neutral was their first big mistake. I'm not a fan of Corbyn but i'm also no fan of Boris. I watched the early debates as I was genuinely undecided on who to vote for but after watching that, it was clear I couldn't vote for either so I went for the Green Party as I liked what I read about them and they didn't force things down my throat all the time. I've been hounded by too many people from Labour and Tories, and was even tempted to headbutt one of them the other week when they stood in my way and was asking me who I was voting for, All the media has been biased through this election depending on who they follow, the Daily Mirror for example has been anti Tory, Channel 4 have been accused of having it in for them as well. Then, like you say The Sun has had it in for Labour amongst other newspapers. Labour went for the millionaires tho by trying to tax them higher, rightly or wrongly they would have took their money and their companies out of the UK if Labour would have got in then it would have been the working people that would have to foot the tax bill of all the promises they had made. If you look at them trying to make it a 4 day working week, don;'t get me wrong that sounds cool but in reality how would it work? My company struggles on 5 day working weeks so a 4 day working week would see us go under in the next year or 2 for sure. I truly hope Labour can get back to what it was, and hopefully they take note of their own motto, "Time For Real Change" Labour's economic platform was realistic in theory, and indeed remains popular. If anything, it's the reason they got any seats at all. The truth is that it's unrealistic in practice because the capitalist class will simply not allow it to happen. They will launch an aggressive and comprehensive propaganda campaign the second you move an inch left of Blairism, and make people believe all sorts of nonsense about it being unworkable or too idealistic. And, crucially, they made Brexit the defining issue of the election, because that was always Corbyn's weakness. In a democratic society, climate change would have been by far the most important issue, but that doesn't fly with corporate leaders for obvious reasons. What this election shows is that as long as we have a capitalist society, no political party can be a real vehicle for change. We have to abandon the hope that electoral politics will save us, and create real, living worker co-operatives that tackle the root power imbalance of our country. It's happening already in some boroughs of London, and housing co-operatives are being created in Scotland. I'm gonna get on the BSA and Democracy at Work apps later and see what my options are.
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Howdo
Oasis Roadie
Listen kids, i'd rather walk!
Posts: 477
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Post by Howdo on Dec 13, 2019 5:48:52 GMT -5
If Labour had a realistic manifesto then of course they would have stood a chance, but the most important topic around this election was Brexit and for Labour to come and say they were neutral was their first big mistake. I'm not a fan of Corbyn but i'm also no fan of Boris. I watched the early debates as I was genuinely undecided on who to vote for but after watching that, it was clear I couldn't vote for either so I went for the Green Party as I liked what I read about them and they didn't force things down my throat all the time. I've been hounded by too many people from Labour and Tories, and was even tempted to headbutt one of them the other week when they stood in my way and was asking me who I was voting for, All the media has been biased through this election depending on who they follow, the Daily Mirror for example has been anti Tory, Channel 4 have been accused of having it in for them as well. Then, like you say The Sun has had it in for Labour amongst other newspapers. Labour went for the millionaires tho by trying to tax them higher, rightly or wrongly they would have took their money and their companies out of the UK if Labour would have got in then it would have been the working people that would have to foot the tax bill of all the promises they had made. If you look at them trying to make it a 4 day working week, don;'t get me wrong that sounds cool but in reality how would it work? My company struggles on 5 day working weeks so a 4 day working week would see us go under in the next year or 2 for sure. I truly hope Labour can get back to what it was, and hopefully they take note of their own motto, "Time For Real Change" Labour's economic platform was realistic in theory, and indeed remains popular. If anything, it's the reason they got any seats at all. The truth is that it's unrealistic in practice because the capitalist class will simply not allow it to happen. They will launch an aggressive and comprehensive propaganda campaign the second you move an inch left of Blairism, and make people believe all sorts of nonsense about it being unworkable or too idealistic. And, crucially, they made Brexit the defining issue of the election, because that was always Corbyn's weakness. In a democratic society, climate change would have been by far the most important issue, but that doesn't fly with corporate leaders for obvious reasons. What this election shows is that as long as we have a capitalist society, no political party can be a real vehicle for change. We have to abandon the hope that electoral politics will save us, and create real, living worker co-operatives that tackle the root power imbalance of our country. It's happening already in some boroughs of London, and housing co-operatives are being created in Scotland. I'm gonna get on the BSA and Democracy at Work apps later and see what my options are. I think if you look through all the manifesto's then everyone from different backgrounds would put together their greatest hits, there was never going to be a party you 100% believed in but you looked for the main points on which you would vote for, clearly it was an election dominated by Brexit and any party that stood a real chance had to have a clear vision on Brexit, Labour didn't and it was a big part of their downfall but in a way I did actually agree with Corbyn by him saying he would back whatever the public voted for but when you are expected to make decisions for the country then it does show a weak leader. A lot of what Labour put in their manifesto sounded good but it did sound too good to be true at times which is why some people couldn't back it as it wasn't that realistic.
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Post by funhouse on Dec 13, 2019 6:04:28 GMT -5
I'm a bit tired and accidentally read the title as "Should the UK leave the UK?"
My answer was yes.
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Post by rorymcbride on Dec 13, 2019 6:34:54 GMT -5
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Post by batfink30 on Dec 13, 2019 7:52:44 GMT -5
It's a small crumb of comfort living in Scotland and thoroughly rejecting the Tories and Brexit but we'll go down with the UK Brexit Titanic. Get ready for austerity like never before and the poor and ill to be absolutely destroyed. 😦😦
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Post by mimmihopps on Dec 13, 2019 8:12:00 GMT -5
UK leaving EU was one thing, but so many people voted for Tory was an another thing.
I have great English friends and their first child was just born early this year. I really feel like his aunt myself and I don't wish him to grow up in the world which was run by idiots.
US and UK, two of the biggest countries of the world have such clowns as the President and PM, what a shame.
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 13, 2019 8:43:50 GMT -5
UK leaving EU was one thing, but so many people voted for Tory was an another thing. I have great English friends and their first child was just born early this year. I really feel like his aunt myself and I don't wish him to grow up in the world which was run by idiots. US and UK, two of the biggest countries of the world have such clowns as the President and PM, what a shame. Try "racist, authoritarian sociopaths who consider themselves above the rule of law". Thinking of them as silly and comedic only helps them grow.
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