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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Feb 27, 2022 14:05:11 GMT -5
I actually fear a defeated Putin - with nothing left to lose, why wouldn’t he use a Nuke? This is one of the many flaws with MAD.
I think Putin might just be mad enough to do it. Problem is that Putin is very strategic. That’s ultimately the problem.
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Post by RocketMan on Feb 27, 2022 14:16:16 GMT -5
I actually fear a defeated Putin - with nothing left to lose, why wouldn’t he use a Nuke? It’s not like he goes out and fires them himself. I’m not convinced that his minions would take that order, it would be their own death sentence. And again: holy shit the things we think about right now, complete madness
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 27, 2022 14:56:59 GMT -5
Sadly due to how unlikely it is I think that's our only way out of this escalation now. It would be so difficult though to take him out, most don't even know where he is and he will only ever be anywhere near people that he trusts implicitly. Military generals may refuse orders, but what then when their subordinates are ordered to kill him and carry out the order instead after being threatened with life in a gulag or the murder of their family if they don't comply with the order?
There are rumours that his immune system is compromised and he is always completely isolated, people have to isolate for 2 weeks and give a fecal sample before they can have any contact with him, I wouldn't be surprised if he's in his nuclear bunker right now with just a handful of people who are completely loyal
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Post by meanstreak on Feb 27, 2022 15:06:32 GMT -5
Our best hope is a few of his inner circle hatch a Valkyrie style plot that is successful.
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Feb 27, 2022 15:10:29 GMT -5
So Trump is a Russian agent?
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Post by oasisserbia on Feb 27, 2022 15:22:36 GMT -5
My only hope is that Putin is not complete lunatic and that he will occupy Ukraine and then arrest Ukrainian Nazis and war criminals, secure his people and let Ukraine to live normal as an independent country. 1% chance but I can't see better solution. So, let's hope that Putin is actually good guy hahahaha.
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Post by oasisserbia on Feb 27, 2022 15:32:49 GMT -5
Also, big support to protesters in Russia!
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Post by Manualex on Feb 27, 2022 19:53:12 GMT -5
So Trump is a Russian agent? Always was ☺🔫
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Feb 27, 2022 23:00:22 GMT -5
So Trump is a Russian agent? Always was ☺🔫 I know that, but I didn't know that both the CIA and FBI said it.
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Post by andymorris on Feb 28, 2022 7:09:33 GMT -5
As an Ukrainian of origin from my grandparents I’d like to say that this Putin fella is not being very nice
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 28, 2022 8:37:17 GMT -5
What are our plans if all hell breaks loose? I am in a difficult locations when it comes to a nuclear exchange, Norfolk is a large, sparsely populated rural area and our major city is of no strategic threat, however we have US air force bases and a Nuclear power plant in relatively close proximity which would mean our fate would be death via radiation sickness, starvation, thirst, freezing to death or cancer which sounds horrific when coupled with the traumatic effect of the war. Theres also a Russian strategy that would be considered of dropping a few of their truely monstrous hydrogen bombs along our coast line to cause us to get flooded with poisoned water preventing any chance of survival
I have a local supermarket that I can run to in about 3 minutes, I'll be hiding in the industrial freezer unit with anyone else who has that idea, the emp blast would knock out the power so we wouldn't freeze and there would be supplies but if Putin activates his coastal hydrogen bomb strategy then we're completely screwed, I'd almost rather be in London where the event would be over before I had time to react. I'll also be getting ripped sh!tless on whiskey and pharmaceutical opioids.
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 28, 2022 8:46:58 GMT -5
Swap North Korea with Russia and this sums up exactly how I'm feeling right now
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Feb 28, 2022 9:09:41 GMT -5
What are our plans if all hell breaks loose? I am in a difficult locations when it comes to a nuclear exchange, Norfolk is a large, sparsely populated rural area and our major city is of no strategic threat, however we have US air force bases and a Nuclear power plant in relatively close proximity which would mean our fate would be death via radiation sickness, starvation, thirst, freezing to death or cancer which sounds horrific when coupled with the traumatic effect of the war. Theres also a Russian strategy that would be considered of dropping a few of their truely monstrous hydrogen bombs along our coast line to cause us to get flooded with poisoned water preventing any chance of survival I have a local supermarket that I can run to in about 3 minutes, I'll be hiding in the industrial freezer unit with anyone else who has that idea, the emp blast would knock out the power so we wouldn't freeze and there would be supplies but if Putin activates his coastal hydrogen bomb strategy then we're completely screwed, I'd almost rather be in London where the event would be over before I had time to react. I'll also be getting ripped sh!tless on whiskey and pharmaceutical opioids. I wouldn't worry about the end of the world just yet. Head to Kings Lynn, then you'll be in a position to head north. I'm closer to London that you but I'll be going to Scotland!
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Post by RocketMan on Feb 28, 2022 9:23:07 GMT -5
I know that, but I didn't know that both the CIA and FBI said it. 7:30 onwards explains their relationship. Putin sings while trump bends over NSFW 🤓
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Feb 28, 2022 9:23:59 GMT -5
I know that, but I didn't know that both the CIA and FBI said it. 7:30 onwards explains their relationship. Putin sings while trump bends over True.
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Post by The Escapist on Feb 28, 2022 10:18:25 GMT -5
Events like these should remind us that any authoritarian organisation of society, whether capitalism or communism, in which a minority of self-serving, slightly-evolved apes are given unaccountable power over a majority, is as much as unpractical way to achieve peace as entrusting society's big decisions to the constellations. Providing we don't all get wiped out by nuclear bombs (a concept that in a sane world would be as ridiculous as building a suspension bridge out of custard), I hope at least a few more people will realise that it's only the rigorous application of democracy, in the workplace and in public life, based on the anarchist principle that all power should be questioned extensively, that can save us from ourselves. It's the hard-headed and pragmatic response to four-thousand year's worth of continuing evidence that no set of us can be trusted with domination over another. Only when power is decentralised does it reduce the chances of events like these.
We are experiencing a nightmare built out of conditions so surreal that it should make anyone question the basics of how we organise society, and whether they could be improved to make the concepts of militaries, nuclear bombs, invasions, dictators, billionaires, seem as insane as they always should have been. The same is true of what Saudi Arabia is doing to Yemen, what Isreal is doing to Palestine, and what America has been doing to vast swathes of the globe for the past eight decades. The tragedies of capitalism, communism, religion - of all authoritarian dogmas - is that they make the evil and surreal so commonplace that it starts to seem childish to imagine a world without them.
Do it anyway.
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 28, 2022 10:51:45 GMT -5
What are our plans if all hell breaks loose? I am in a difficult locations when it comes to a nuclear exchange, Norfolk is a large, sparsely populated rural area and our major city is of no strategic threat, however we have US air force bases and a Nuclear power plant in relatively close proximity which would mean our fate would be death via radiation sickness, starvation, thirst, freezing to death or cancer which sounds horrific when coupled with the traumatic effect of the war. Theres also a Russian strategy that would be considered of dropping a few of their truely monstrous hydrogen bombs along our coast line to cause us to get flooded with poisoned water preventing any chance of survival I have a local supermarket that I can run to in about 3 minutes, I'll be hiding in the industrial freezer unit with anyone else who has that idea, the emp blast would knock out the power so we wouldn't freeze and there would be supplies but if Putin activates his coastal hydrogen bomb strategy then we're completely screwed, I'd almost rather be in London where the event would be over before I had time to react. I'll also be getting ripped sh!tless on whiskey and pharmaceutical opioids. I wouldn't worry about the end of the world just yet. Head to Kings Lynn, then you'll be in a position to head north. I'm closer to London that you but I'll be going to Scotland! I'm not a worrier, I've never panicked in times of crisis or threats. But this is different, Putin's mental state is worrying all the the experts are unusually worried when usually the papers are predicting all out war they calm it down and call it sensationalism, not this time, everyone who knows their shit is scared and that scares the fuck out of me. I think it's the real deal this time and I've never felt fear quite like this before
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 28, 2022 11:05:50 GMT -5
Events like these should remind us that any authoritarian organisation of society, whether capitalism or communism, in which a minority of self-serving, slightly-evolved apes are given unaccountable power over a majority, is as much as unpractical way to achieve peace as entrusting society's big decisions to the constellations. Providing we don't all get wiped out by nuclear bombs (a concept that in a sane world would be as ridiculous as building a suspension bridge out of custard), I hope at least a few more people will realise that it's only the rigorous application of democracy, in the workplace and in public life, based on the anarchist principle that all power should be questioned extensively, that can save us from ourselves. It's the hard-headed and pragmatic response to four-thousand year's worth of continuing evidence that no set of us can be trusted with domination over another. Only when power is decentralised does it reduce the chances of events like these. We are experiencing a nightmare built out of conditions so surreal that it should make anyone question the basics of how we organise society, and whether they could be improved to make the concepts of militaries, nuclear bombs, invasions, dictators, billionaires, seem as insane as they always should have been. The same is true of what Saudi Arabia is doing to Yemen, what Isreal is doing to Palestine, and what America has been doing to vast swathes of the globe for the past eight decades. The tragedies of capitalism, communism, religion - of all authoritarian dogmas - is that they make the evil and surreal so commonplace that it starts to seem childish to imagine a world without them. Do it anyway. We don't have a say in any of this though even in western countries, we don't really get to choose who leads us or what system of government rules over us, we get a choice between bad and slightly less bad but that's it. It's even worse for the people of Russia/China/Afghanistan/NK etc etc etc I agree with everything here, I've been saying it in less eloquent terms for years, but we don't have the power to change the laws of nature. Why would the powerful give up their power in the name of egalitarianism? The natural order of things always states that a small number of individuals hold all the power and the rest are inconsequential, this is true for the animal kingdom as well as the laws of nature and physics, it's how our reality works.
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Post by dampcottage on Feb 28, 2022 11:26:56 GMT -5
I've long believed that years in the future whatever peaceful and enlightened society exists will struggle to believe how cruel and savage "civilization" actually is at this time, we have based our ideas and ideals around both religion and money instead of the blatantly fucking obvious things right in front of our eyes, the achievements of our species are truly incredible, what we have discovered and created, always hanging by a thread... In the worst scenario I'm heading to the mountains of Catalonia and Andorra with my wife, 2 horses, and a pony, try and hold out as long as we can, if we make it that far of course...
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Post by dampcottage on Feb 28, 2022 11:31:18 GMT -5
Also, there's no war but the class war, probably the only thing that would save us from this pish
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Post by The Escapist on Feb 28, 2022 12:10:48 GMT -5
We don't have a say in any of this though even in western countries, we don't really get to choose who leads us or what system of government rules over us, we get a choice between bad and slightly less bad but that's it. It's even worse for the people of Russia/China/Afghanistan/NK etc etc etc I agree with everything here, I've been saying it in less eloquent terms for years, but we don't have the power to change the laws of nature. Why would the powerful give up their power in the name of egalitarianism? The natural order of things always states that a small number of individuals hold all the power and the rest are inconsequential, this is true for the animal kingdom as well as the laws of nature and physics, it's how our reality works. If there is any path at all that humanity can set for itself during the finite amount of time our species can exist in such a universe, it has to be to use the phenomenal gift of consciousness we are born with to transcend, or at least channel, our base animal instincts to something better. If we cave into our fear of death, we get religion. If we cave into our lust, we get the subjugation of women. If we cave into our tribalism, we get war. And if we cave into the strange, almost sado-masochistic desire to be controlled by absolute authority (whether in heaven or on earth), then we will inevitably end up with situations like this one, if not considerably worse. We may not have much of a choice. We can grow up, or we can implode. As to what extent this is possible, there's two things to remember. The first is that we have already come a long way. We don't allow the weak children to die off anymore, as is the "law of nature"; remember, we used to throw the mentally weak off mountain cliffs. We don't live our lives as hunter-gatherers anymore. It was only two millennia ago that the most enlightened philosophers of the most enlightened societies thought that women should held as a common stock for the strongest men to breed at will. In lots of ways, we have already shed the worst instincts that were common to homo sapiens for 98,000 years, and which are still held by most of the animal kingdom. That's good. We can never be angels, but we certainly don't have to be apes. The second is that even if it's impossible to achieve true democracy, that doesn't mean the effort isn't worthwhile. The amount of human life that is destroyed and wasted every single day for the sake of maintaining unjust power is staggering. For just one woman who doesn't have to live in fear of her husband raping her lawfully, it's worth it. For the sake of one Ukranian refugee, for the sake of one child-worker who slaves to maintain the magic tricks of capitalism, it's worth it. There are practical ways to start. To give one example, there are organisations like the Mondragon Co-Operative, which is controlled and ran democratically by it's workers, in which no-one's pay can exceed anyone else's by eight times, in which key decisions are voted upon through the ranks. Workplace democracy of that kind is a real, and needed, solution to capitalism. We can, and should, ban forced religious education. The list goes on. My general point is that events like the ones we're seeing now should act as a catalyst for people to adopt the outlook of the anarchist, to question the basics of the systems of power that dominate our lives, from the totalitarian way that corporations are organised, to the effects of borders and nation-states, to the power of religion over the soul, of men over women, of humanity over the animal kingdom and nature. The beauty is that anarchism is more akin to feminism than communism - it's a theory, it evolves and expands, it has no special book, no set rules, no great leaders and no ideal society. It's just a way of looking at power, a way of acting upon it, of how we move forward from here. Without it, without at least the spirit of it, there's no guarantee that we will have much time left to move forward at all.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Feb 28, 2022 12:29:23 GMT -5
I've long believed that years in the future whatever peaceful and enlightened society exists will struggle to believe how cruel and savage "civilization" actually is at this time, we have based our ideas and ideals around both religion and money instead of the blatantly fucking obvious things right in front of our eyes, the achievements of our species are truly incredible, what we have discovered and created, always hanging by a thread... In the worst scenario I'm heading to the mountains of Catalonia and Andorra with my wife, 2 horses, and a pony, try and hold out as long as we can, if we make it that far of course... A couple decades from now we will reach the theoretical maximum sustainable global population limit. At which point, global society will begin to decline again. Some might argue that is already occurring, exacerbated by climate change.
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 28, 2022 12:36:51 GMT -5
We don't have a say in any of this though even in western countries, we don't really get to choose who leads us or what system of government rules over us, we get a choice between bad and slightly less bad but that's it. It's even worse for the people of Russia/China/Afghanistan/NK etc etc etc I agree with everything here, I've been saying it in less eloquent terms for years, but we don't have the power to change the laws of nature. Why would the powerful give up their power in the name of egalitarianism? The natural order of things always states that a small number of individuals hold all the power and the rest are inconsequential, this is true for the animal kingdom as well as the laws of nature and physics, it's how our reality works. If there is any path at all that humanity can set for itself during the finite amount of time our species can exist in such a universe, it has to be to use the phenomenal gift of consciousness we are born with to transcend, or at least channel, our base animal instincts to something better. If we cave into our fear of death, we get religion. If we cave into our lust, we get the subjugation of women. If we cave into our tribalism, we get war. And if we cave into the strange, almost sado-masochistic desire to be controlled by absolute authority (whether in heaven or on earth), then we will inevitably end up with situations like this one, if not considerably worse. We may not have much of a choice. We can grow up, or we can implode. As to what extent this is possible, there's two things to remember. The first is that we have already come a long way. We don't allow the weak children to die off anymore, as is the "law of nature"; remember, we used to throw the mentally weak off mountain cliffs. We don't live our lives as hunter-gatherers anymore. It was only two millennia ago that the most enlightened philosophers of the most enlightened societies thought that women should held as a common stock for the strongest men to breed at will. In lots of ways, we have already shed the worst instincts that were common to homo sapiens for 98,000 years, and which are still held by most of the animal kingdom. That's good. We can never be angels, but we certainly don't have to be apes. The second is that even if it's impossible to achieve true democracy, that doesn't mean the effort isn't worthwhile. The amount of human life that is destroyed and wasted every single day for the sake of maintaining unjust power is staggering. For just one woman who doesn't have to live in fear of her husband raping her lawfully, it's worth it. For the sake of one Ukranian refugee, for the sake of one child-worker who slaves to maintain the magic tricks of capitalism, it's worth it. There are practical ways to start. To give one example, there are organisations like the Mondragon Co-Operative, which is controlled and ran democratically by it's workers, in which no-one's pay can exceed anyone else's by eight times, in which key decisions are voted upon through the ranks. Workplace democracy of that kind is a real, and needed, solution to capitalism. We can, and should, ban forced religious education. The list goes on. My general point is that events like the ones we're seeing now should act as a catalyst for people to adopt the outlook of the anarchist, to question the basics of the systems of power that dominate our lives, from the totalitarian way that corporations are organised, to the effects of borders and nation-states, to the power of religion over the soul, of men over women, of humanity over the animal kingdom and nature. The beauty is that anarchism is more akin to feminism than communism - it's a theory, it evolves and expands, it has no special book, no set rules, no great leaders and no ideal society. It's just a way of looking at power, a way of acting upon it, of how we move forward from here. Without it, without at least the spirit of it, there's no guarantee that we will have much time left to move forward at all. I love this, it sums up what I'm intellectually incapable of expressing, I agree 100%. However it's difficult to express views such as this even now when people have fallen for the great lie hook line and sinker, it's difficult to question the system without coming across as what critics would call a deluded liberal or 'commie' or whatever stupid people call people who believe humanity can do better. But it won't happen though or at least in time to avert the current crisis we find ourselves in. All of those positive changes away from our baser instincts you mentioned occurred over a long peroid of time which included an unimaginable degree of suffering to get to where we are now. We're not going to change in the next 1/10 or even 100 years, too many people have sycophantic, groveling tenancies and feel like they need 'leaders' to feel safe and tell them what to do,. nothing is going to chnage in time to avert disaster and if disaster does occur once again the psychopathic and emotionless "strong" of humanity will dominate and form new hierarchy based societies that only benefit the rulers and people will fall for it because it's in our nature to do so. "I scared, brave leader strong! I follow brave leader because me scared and me no want make decisions" but this is all driven by the nature of reality and natural selection so it's hard to blame people for having this as their nature. TLDR It's all fucked and we have no hope
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 28, 2022 12:53:19 GMT -5
We as people have to move into a more enlightened age away from the need for 'leaders' or even the idea of hierarchy's. I don't care if it's the way it's always been or it's what has moved blah blah blah amount of people out of poverty, it was a means to an end in an unenlightened age, it was better than fuedalism or communism, whatever, great, but we're smarter now and can do better! Humanity has to now take it upon itself to do better and I'm not talking communism or any of that BS, but we have to stop ourselves being ruled or controlled in any capacity and people in positions of power have to be seen as public servants not leaders, if we somehow make it through this crisis things have to change and people have to let go of their self interest and prejudice to enable the betterment of man.
"leaders" "rulers" "kings/queens" etc have to be kicked to the curb and we have to install a new system, crisis' like this prove unequivocally why that is necessary, it's one man not a country causing this crisis. I like to believe humanity can do better, but i'm also pessimistic and afriad that the worst of us will quell such dissent with their boring rhetoric and people will lap it up. Oh well, see you all in hell.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Feb 28, 2022 13:13:35 GMT -5
I once called my high school soccer coach Stalin.
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