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Post by The Escapist on May 5, 2022 5:33:19 GMT -5
And I think that's where any mentality issues come from, such as they might be. When a team lacks a focal point to score the chances, to be a ruthless force in the box and be the one who can inspire the team at any moment, the whole thing becomes more fragile. Every missed chance makes every counter-attack feel more nervy. Sterling, Jesus, Bernardo, Foden, Grealish, Mahrez, Gundogan... are all superb players who I think would do everything asked of them when playing around a striker as Pep wants them to, but none of them are that Benzema, that Ronaldo, who can be ruthless at the centre of the storm and strike lightning into the net. If City do bring in Haaland (for £64m, that's the madness of release clauses) and he does for them what he's done for Dortmund, it could be the final piece of the puzzle that they need for the UCL. But like I said, in football, you just don't know. He could end up another Lukaku, and we could be having another City-loss-in-Europe decision this time next year. They are all great players, but I think a better manager turns them into players who will get them over the line. Klopp bought a strikeforce that wasn't known for being prolific and developed them into top top players and has already won the Champions League before them. Not unknown but very good players coming from clubs that hadn't competed on the highest level. And I think that's the difference, whereas Klopp will fight and develop players, Guardiola relies on oil funds to bail him out constantly. Sooner or later, you've got to start looking at what you've got, and City, or Guardiola, have had years and years to buy and buy with endless funds that any other manager could dream of.... but here we are having a debate about their lack of strikers. We have to start looking at why the manager hasn't got them to that stage after five years with the cheat codes on. And I think Pep has done that, winning the league last year while fighting on four fronts and reaching the UCL final, and being top of the league now without a striker as well. It's worth remembering that not having a striker wasn't part of the plan like it is at Liverpool - this entire City team was assembled to play with one, and the owners have fucked it up. Aguero left because he was told the club were bringing in a new, world-beating Number Nine to fit the system, and then they tried Haaland but it was too early, got distracted by Messi and failed to land Kane, and then failed to get Kane again, and then failed to get Ronaldo, and here we are. Although Pep has to take the blame for not starting Rodri in the UCL final last year, I think this is a far more significant factor than any idea that he's just a "bottlejob", when his players concede two goals in two minutes after being the better team over two legs, but failed to convert the chances that should fall to someone clinical. I think it's a credit to Pep that he's managed to create another system at the drop of a hat to spread the goals and have it bring big trophies. Nor do I think he's incapable of developing players - it's worth remembering that the Barca he inherited weren't considered the superstars they became under Pep, and in Manchester you don't have to look further than Phil Foden to see how he's made an academy lad from Stockport into a serial winner and starter for one of the best teams in Europe. He's had a massive impact on the likes of Jesus, Stones, Sterling, and Zinchenko, too. Ultimately, I don't think every result needs to be someone's fault. Sometimes the other team just pull something out of the bag and knock you out of a cup competition, and with Benzema and Rodrygo on the pitch, Real Madrid can certainly do that. But if there is anyone who has to have the finger pointed at them for City not winning it this season, it's Txiki and his inability to sign any player without a release clause.
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Post by funhouse on May 5, 2022 8:47:01 GMT -5
It's not luck if you do it constantly. They've won the Champions League before without truly being impressive, and they might very well do it again. They're a winning club, plain and simple. Granted, Ancelotti instils great team spirit, so probably resilience and confidence there when the chips are down. He's a great leader of course. Not sure it's even that much about Ancelotti, I think you just get confidence and a sense of belief playing for that club, especially in the Champions league. With 10 minutes left they know they can still pull it off, and if they don't it's not a huge disaster because they win it every now and then anyway. Still lots of pressure of course, but you can't compare it to City who is yet to win and HAS to win it, or PSG who only exist to win it.
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Post by oasisserbia on May 5, 2022 9:21:58 GMT -5
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Post by quantum on May 5, 2022 10:06:41 GMT -5
All this talk of City having no strikers? Their own website lists three! Fine two are wingers that can also play upfront (and cost £100M+ between them) but there's also Jesus.
If Pep wanted a top striker then he would have bought one. He's not saving up to buy one!
He's a great manager, but has never tried competing without a massive budget, so it's on him (and his players) that they've blown the CL once again.
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Post by The Escapist on May 5, 2022 10:46:34 GMT -5
All this talk of City having no strikers? Their own website lists three! Fine two are wingers that can also play upfront (and cost £100M+ between them) but there's also Jesus. If Pep wanted a top striker then he would have bought one. He's not saving up to buy one! He's a great manager, but has never tried competing without a massive budget, so it's on him (and his players) that they've blown the CL once again. Where? Their site, as far as I can tell, lists the forwards, which includes wingers: Sterling, who is not a striker, Mahrez, who is not a striker, Jesus, who can play striker but has said multiple times that he is a winger, and Alvarez, who doesn't play for them yet. None of those are true strikers. There's Liam Delap, of course, but he's an academy lad and nowhere near first-team level. The fact that wingers have been shoved up front for the past two seasons isn't proof that City suddenly have multiple strikers, it's proof that they have none, and Pep has had to create a new attacking system to deal with that. Saying "If Pep wanted a top striker, he would have bought one" seems quite naïve as to how these things actually work. Pep doesn't control the money. He doesn't negotiate purchases. He just talks with the board and tells them what players he thinks the team needs, and why. And what he's been telling them has been very clear for two years: the team needs a Harry Kane, or as close as they can get to him. A clinical striker that this City was envisioned around before Sergio became plagued with injuries. The board assured both him that one would be brought in when they let Sergio leave - they then realised Haaland was considered unattainable without the release clause, failed to land Kane twice, and got gazumped by United over Ronaldo. Ultimately, it might not have mattered even if they did have a striker. Losing to Real Madrid in Europe can happen to anyone. But if you do want to lay the blame at anyone other than the players on the night, then the first target has to be Txiki and Khaldoon, for me. They have a generational manager at their club and to force him to play two seasons with no striker when he has built a team around one and insists that a striker is what they need, is an embarrassment. He still has an exceptional and expensive squad, which is why they got to the semi's and are top of the league, but to deny that there isn't a big piece of the jigsaw missing or to try and blame that fact on Pep feels like forcing square-facts into round-narrative holes.
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Post by oasisserbia on May 5, 2022 13:51:45 GMT -5
After all, football is not that complicated and all you need is someone like Pippo Inzaghi.
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Post by matt on May 5, 2022 17:08:41 GMT -5
They are all great players, but I think a better manager turns them into players who will get them over the line. Klopp bought a strikeforce that wasn't known for being prolific and developed them into top top players and has already won the Champions League before them. Not unknown but very good players coming from clubs that hadn't competed on the highest level. And I think that's the difference, whereas Klopp will fight and develop players, Guardiola relies on oil funds to bail him out constantly. Sooner or later, you've got to start looking at what you've got, and City, or Guardiola, have had years and years to buy and buy with endless funds that any other manager could dream of.... but here we are having a debate about their lack of strikers. We have to start looking at why the manager hasn't got them to that stage after five years with the cheat codes on. And I think Pep has done that, winning the league last year while fighting on four fronts and reaching the UCL final, and being top of the league now without a striker as well. It's worth remembering that not having a striker wasn't part of the plan like it is at Liverpool - this entire City team was assembled to play with one, and the owners have fucked it up. Aguero left because he was told the club were bringing in a new, world-beating Number Nine to fit the system, and then they tried Haaland but it was too early, got distracted by Messi and failed to land Kane, and then failed to get Kane again, and then failed to get Ronaldo, and here we are. Although Pep has to take the blame for not starting Rodri in the UCL final last year, I think this is a far more significant factor than any idea that he's just a "bottlejob", when his players concede two goals in two minutes after being the better team over two legs, but failed to convert the chances that should fall to someone clinical. I think it's a credit to Pep that he's managed to create another system at the drop of a hat to spread the goals and have it bring big trophies. Nor do I think he's incapable of developing players - it's worth remembering that the Barca he inherited weren't considered the superstars they became under Pep, and in Manchester you don't have to look further than Phil Foden to see how he's made an academy lad from Stockport into a serial winner and starter for one of the best teams in Europe. He's had a massive impact on the likes of Jesus, Stones, Sterling, and Zinchenko, too. Ultimately, I don't think every result needs to be someone's fault. Sometimes the other team just pull something out of the bag and knock you out of a cup competition, and with Benzema and Rodrygo on the pitch, Real Madrid can certainly do that. But if there is anyone who has to have the finger pointed at them for City not winning it this season, it's Txiki and his inability to sign any player without a release clause. I don't doubt Guardiola's ability and I know he can develop players, all I'm saying is I'd like to see him do it more rather than buying ready made products off the shelf. It's too easy and you can't deny the players he's brought are all top established players and with unlimited resources he's had should be yielding a Champions League at this stage. If he can work on a project by bringing a club from mediocrity to the top, like Klopp did, then he proves all his worth and then he can be classed as the best in the world. But I would like to see him work with limitations and he's never had to do that. At the same time, having unlimited funds isn't as easy as it sounds - Man Utd have spent similar (or more) than City with very good managers (barring Solskjaer) and shown how difficult it is to build a winning team so I think he's capable. Overall, I think there's a really interesting debate about the methods of Guardiola versus someone like Klopp or Ancelotti. I think the latter allow a bit more creative freedom from players, whereas there is a strict regimented role for each player in Guardiola's system. It's not about what's the better way, because tactical discipline is the thing that was severely lacking in English football but maybe that's why his team's collapse. If you look at his semi-final record in the Champions League since 2012, all losses stem from a collapse within a short period of time where 2 or 3 goals are conceded in a small window. They're not outplayed by any means but it proves there are phases when they lose their head, and maybe Guardiola needs to learn to let them off the leash in these moments more. Take confidence in the players he has and allow greater expression. Klopp frequently asks players to 'take risks' when on the ball, and you see that as they mix the play up a bit more (not adverse to being very direct if possible), likewise with Ancelotti. I think I saw a stat where the transition game for Liverpool is quicker and direct whereas City's is a lot more methodical. Faith in the methodical system is something I admire and personally I prefer that idealistic way, but football is also inherently an emotional game and when things go awry, sometimes you need to divert from the plan. Ideally City would get to a state where they are calm enough to deal with it but you can't take the human element out of it. That's just a debate but if it's not a question of tactics, then it's a question of mentality. Either way, I do feel it's Guardiola's responsibility to deal with it because it keeps happening.
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Post by RocketMan on May 6, 2022 5:47:24 GMT -5
Pep is the best Coach for the best team in the world. Klopp can turn an average team into beating the best team in the world.
In one of the most underrated games, Champions League QF 2014 vs Real Madrid, Dortmund was undermanned, had injury problems and just lost the first leg in Madrid 3-0. In the second leg, despite all our problems, we completely dominated Real for 90 minutes, and only due to missing huge chances we didn’t kick Madrid out of the CL. We were so close to our own Liverpool-Barcelona moment.
I don’t know how Klopp does it, but I bet he could turn us peasants into world beaters for 90mins lol he is in my completely biased opinion a better coach than Pep
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Post by oasisserbia on May 6, 2022 7:48:52 GMT -5
How do you know then that Klopp isn't the best coach for best team in the world? 🤗
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Post by matt on May 6, 2022 9:01:34 GMT -5
Pep is the best Coach for the best team in the world. Klopp can turn an average team into beating the best team in the world. In one of the most underrated games, Champions League QF 2014 vs Real Madrid, Dortmund was undermanned, had injury problems and just lost the first leg in Madrid 3-0. In the second leg, despite all our problems, we completely dominated Real for 90 minutes, and only due to missing huge chances we didn’t kick Madrid out of the CL. We were so close to our own Liverpool-Barcelona moment. I don’t know how Klopp does it, but I bet he could turn us peasants into world beaters for 90mins lol he is in my completely biased opinion a better coach than Pep I remember that match. I recall their amazing run to the final in 2013 too, when everyone was rooting for them. There's a mad figure that the Dortmund side of the 2013 Champions League final cost best part of £20 million or something like that, which is astonishing. And then Pep merely hand picked the best Dortmund players Klopp had moulded and grafted with... It helps that he now has funds so this doesn't happen with his Liverpool sides and yet, still, their transfer outlet is reliant on profiteering from player sales like Coutinho - but again, the product of his coaching (will be fun to watch Liverpool's owners trying to compete this way when Klopp leaves with a lesser manager). England distorts the comparisons though and it's the Germany achievements that set the two apart and show who really is the best. Guardiola did the bare minimum with Bayern, didn't get close to the Champions League despite being handed what was then the best team in Europe when he arrived, yet Klopp did outrageous things with Dortmund. Clubs are always punching above their weight when he manages fighting against the clubs with the financial cheat codes, and Liverpool fans will find that out when he leaves. Maybe the key difference is Guardiola is more suited to long term league campaigns where the best tactical system really does win out overall, and Klopp prefers the hustle and bustle of cup competitions? But I just might be simplifying and reflecting the English experience so far. He wins less, but by nature the filthy rich clubs will still come out on top. Put him in Real Madrid or Man City or Barca, and they would trump everything. If he's still on for winning everything with Liverpool, then he'd probably have done it a long time before with those stronger clubs. Maybe it's just about the self-confidence he gives players. It's about charisma at the end of the day. While on a good day I'd be impressed by Guardiola's suave charm, when things get nervy he turns into a neurotic mess. Klopp never fears adversity though even having lost, he positively craves the challenge given he could have taken an easier job than Dortmund and Liverpool even when losing, and that's the guy you want with you when going into battle. Would love to see him as Germany manager one day. Conversely, would love to see Guardiola manage Spain.
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Post by matt on May 6, 2022 9:21:28 GMT -5
How do you know then that Klopp isn't the best coach for best team in the world? 🤗 Looking at all his previous trophy wins, I think Ancelotti has a good shout for this 'best coach for the best team' tag if he wins the Champions League again.
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Post by oasisserbia on May 6, 2022 9:25:15 GMT -5
Great chance for small country like Croatia to have player who won Champions league ten years in a row.
2013. Mario Mandžukić (Bayern) 2014. Luka Modrić (Real Madrid) 2015. Ivan Rakitić (Barcelona) 2016. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2017. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2018. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2019. Dejan Lovren (Liverpool) 2020. Ivan Perišić (Bayern) 2021. Mateo Kovačić (Chelsea)
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Post by matt on May 6, 2022 9:28:37 GMT -5
Great chance for small country like Croatia to have player who won Champions league ten years in a row. 2013. Mario Mandžukić (Bayern) 2014. Luka Modrić (Real Madrid) 2015. Ivan Rakitić (Barcelona) 2016. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2017. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2018. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2019. Dejan Lovren (Liverpool) 2020. Ivan Perišić (Bayern) 2021. Mateo Kovačić (Chelsea) Don't forget in that time, fond memories of those players beating England a few years ago...
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Post by The Escapist on May 7, 2022 6:11:35 GMT -5
Rumours of Pogba-to-City hotting up. Sounds like an absolute disaster waiting to happen.
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on May 7, 2022 15:08:33 GMT -5
Rumours of Pogba-to-City hotting up. Sounds like an absolute disaster waiting to happen. I think Man UTD needs to keep him, owie against BHA
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Post by funhouse on May 7, 2022 16:59:32 GMT -5
Great chance for small country like Croatia to have player who won Champions league ten years in a row. 2013. Mario Mandžukić (Bayern) 2014. Luka Modrić (Real Madrid) 2015. Ivan Rakitić (Barcelona) 2016. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2017. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2018. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2019. Dejan Lovren (Liverpool) 2020. Ivan Perišić (Bayern) 2021. Mateo Kovačić (Chelsea) And in Sweden we still feel proud for Jesper Blomqvist starting the 1999 CL final, aka the trivia question that no one gets.
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Post by RocketMan on May 8, 2022 4:01:11 GMT -5
Great chance for small country like Croatia to have player who won Champions league ten years in a row. 2013. Mario Mandžukić (Bayern) 2014. Luka Modrić (Real Madrid) 2015. Ivan Rakitić (Barcelona) 2016. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2017. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2018. Luka Modrić, Mateo Kovačić (Real Madrid) 2019. Dejan Lovren (Liverpool) 2020. Ivan Perišić (Bayern) 2021. Mateo Kovačić (Chelsea) And in Sweden we still feel proud for Jesper Blomqvist starting the 1999 CL final, aka the trivia question that no one gets. Crazy that Ibrahimovic never made a CL-final
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Post by funhouse on May 8, 2022 7:08:08 GMT -5
And in Sweden we still feel proud for Jesper Blomqvist starting the 1999 CL final, aka the trivia question that no one gets. Crazy that Ibrahimovic never made a CL-final If he stayed at Inter, who knows what would have happened. And he was of course only one year in Barcelona. Maybe he was at PSG too early, can't remember if they even got to a semi final. But it's funny to think of all the (relatively)mediocre players with CL- and World Cup medals while many of the greats never got one. That's the charm with team sports.
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Post by The Escapist on May 9, 2022 13:08:54 GMT -5
£52m transfer fee and £370,000 wages for Erling Haaland is insane business.
Txiki and Khaldoon obviously read my posts on here and got their arse in gear.
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Post by Manualex on May 9, 2022 13:54:51 GMT -5
£52m transfer fee and £370,000 wages for Erling Haaland is insane business. Txiki and Khaldoon obviously read my posts on here and got their arse in gear. If the new release clause rumor (150 million) is true then we will see Haaland jump ship on a couple of years to his next team.
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Post by matt on May 10, 2022 16:03:06 GMT -5
Man, he's gonna be gutted when he finds out who he'll be playing for.
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Post by quantum on May 11, 2022 3:48:59 GMT -5
If the new release clause rumor (150 million) is true then we will see Haaland jump ship on a couple of years to his next team. It's not true. Based on your posts in this thread, you must be a city fan - yeah?
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Post by The Escapist on May 11, 2022 5:59:18 GMT -5
Based on your posts in this thread, you must be a city fan - yeah? Not really. Kind of. I was raised in a City family and got into football through watching them, so in a sense I "follow" them and primarily experience football through the prism of City, what with my Dad being a fan from the old days and spending time with him around football. Obviously, I don't agree with their owners and state-connected royals owning football clubs in general, I fully support fan-ownership of clubs. I don't spend money on City so as not to contribute to them like that, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't watch their games. I think if their ownership were to change, I'd be a full City fan, but it's hard to do that in all good faith now. I don't know. Weird situation. Like having a family member in prison - you want to like them, you have an emotional connection to them, but it's hard to defend them right now, so you just hope that they can change so you can be close to them properly.
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Post by RocketMan on May 12, 2022 6:39:44 GMT -5
I wonder how Haaland will fit with City. His biggest weakness is playing with the ball and being efficient in tight places (that’s what she said said). He’s very clumsy at times, like the opposite of Lewandowski at this age, who was already brilliant with the ball and had an incredible vision and playmaking ability, which is why Klopp often played him as a 10 but he was kind of a Timo Werner in front of the goal.
So it’ll be interesting to see if he becomes one of the all time greats or a glorified Lukaku
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Post by The Escapist on May 12, 2022 7:21:14 GMT -5
I wonder how Haaland will fit with City. His biggest weakness is playing with the ball and being efficient in tight places (that’s what she said said). He’s very clumsy at times, like the opposite of Lewandowski at this age, who was already brilliant with the ball and had an incredible vision and playmaking ability, which is why Klopp often played him as a 10 but he was kind of a Timo Werner in front of the goal. So it’ll be interesting to see if he becomes one of the all time greats or a glorified Lukaku There's definitely a lot of question marks. With him being bought for such a bargain price though (less than United paid for Fred!), then the worst case scenario is that he becomes either injured, or an option when pure ruthless height and finishing is needed, or the counter is more likely, and then gets sold for a profit at the end. It's worth remembering that the lad is younger than both Foden and Alvarez. Give him time under Pep to develop his technique and tactical understanding, and he could become a monster. On the other hand, his finishing might dry up and the lack of control/possession he brings to games might be too much for Pep to stomach. The other good news if you're wanting him to be a flop is that Pep 100% preferred Kane and considered Haaland a distant second option. We'll see! The pre-season will be interesting in how Pep tries to integrate him into the system.
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