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Post by Beady’s Here Now on May 19, 2011 12:25:39 GMT -5
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Post by thuperthonic on May 19, 2011 16:00:30 GMT -5
The Middle East is awake. More than it has been since God knows when. Israel is eventually going to be surrounded by people who want them out and are willing to remove them by force if necessary. So they better start kowtowing now.
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Post by spaneli on May 19, 2011 17:51:04 GMT -5
Actually what Obama said wasn't really that much of change of what previous presidents have said.
He said that Palestine has to do more to get statehood. check
He said that Israel's security can't be compromised. check
He said that Palestine must break ties with Hamas. check
The lines of territory must be based on the 1967 borders. check
He also said that Palestine couldn't get statehood through the UN. check
All have been said by previous presidents. Which include President Clinton and George W. Bush. Who both stated that land on the west bank should go to Palestine. I get that Israel is mad because they said that Obama reneged on an 2004 agreement, but in the end, he didn't say anything that his predecessors didn't say. Nothing new was really said. Again, US foreign policy really doesn't change, and it didn't change here. I don't get the controversy really.
I think people are blowing the "Palestine and Israel should go by the 1967 accords." out of proportion, without actually knowing what the 1967 accords say. And that its not different from what US foreign policy has been with Israel and Palestine for a pretty long time now.
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Post by spaneli on May 19, 2011 17:58:00 GMT -5
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Post by NYR on May 19, 2011 18:41:09 GMT -5
i think that this is the starting point at the negotiations, not the be all, end all of a potential agreement. nobody will get what they want here. i highly doubt israel will give up the golan heights. one thing i'm positive of is that even if israel goes back to the '67 borders, israel will still be attacked daily as it is now. (it's not like because the arabs were very welcoming israel with open arms before '67.) that's not to say israel has had their hands clean. they're no angels, either. but neither are the palestinians. The Middle East is awake. More than it has been since God knows when. Israel is eventually going to be surrounded by people who want them out and are willing to remove them by force if necessary. So they better start kowtowing now. israel has been surrounded by people who have wanted them out ever since 1948. the day after the nation was officially founded, egypt, saudi arabia, iraq, syria, yemen and other surrounding areas/nations went to war with israel. (the same countries that voted to approve the country's founding in the 1947 united nations vote, by the way.) israel won, and won land. that's what happens in war. if you attack someone and lose, chances are, you're going to lose land. for example, that's what happened to germany and austria-hungary after the end of world war i, germany in world war ii and south vietnam after the vietnam war. for anyone to complain that israel "stole" land is absurd. (the settlers are a different issue altogether, though. they're as extremist and crazy as hamas or hezbollah.) israel isn't going anywhere, whether they like it or not.
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Post by spaneli on May 20, 2011 10:38:43 GMT -5
Still waiting on NL4E's actual opinion on this.
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Post by NYR on May 20, 2011 11:28:16 GMT -5
Still waiting on NL4E's actual opinion on this. his opinion is: if the president fucked up in any way, big or small, i will make it look like he already lost his reelection campaign chances because of it.
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Post by spaneli on May 20, 2011 11:31:28 GMT -5
Still waiting on NL4E's actual opinion on this. his opinion is: if the president fucked up in any way, big or small, i will make it look like he already lost his reelection campaign chances because of it. ahahahaha, maybe.... But I'd still like to hear NL4E's actual opinion. He started this thread and hasn't said anything on it since. If you're going to make statements, such as "what is he thinking", then tell us what you're thinking. NL4E, still waiting....
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on May 20, 2011 11:48:41 GMT -5
I just think he could have handled it more tactfully. Instead, he threw an ally under the bus, so to speak, and pissed them off in the process. Hardly a good diplomatic approach.
Anyway, what Obama suggested won't happen anyway, so it's a moot point to begin with.
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Post by spaneli on May 20, 2011 11:53:35 GMT -5
I just think he could have handled it more tactfully. Instead, he threw an ally under the bus, so to speak, and pissed them off in the process. Hardly a good diplomatic approach. Anyway, what Obama suggested won't happen anyway, so it's a moot point to begin with. He didn't throw them under the bus. In the end, he said the same thing that 4 previous other presidents have said. If anything, Palestine feels like Obama didn't say anything that helped them out. It's a lot of an over reaction. And I think 24 hours later, some are starting to realize that. But like you said, it will probably never happen anyways. So it doesn't matter.
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Post by NYR on May 21, 2011 17:29:10 GMT -5
I just think he could have handled it more tactfully. Instead, he threw an ally under the bus, so to speak, and pissed them off in the process. Hardly a good diplomatic approach. Anyway, what Obama suggested won't happen anyway, so it's a moot point to begin with. i can tell you that a good number of israelis knew this was obama's position. i have family there and as unhappy they are about this, they all knew. they also know that this was the attempted starting point at negotiations. secondly, if you say that obama threw israel under the bus, then you say the same thing about george w. bush. (clinton as well, actually)
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Post by thomaslivesforever on May 23, 2011 7:41:16 GMT -5
NL4E appears to be the worst political scientist going.
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