|
Post by TheEXPERIENCE on Mar 6, 2009 9:42:23 GMT -5
theexperience, what is this, 1950? alright, joe mccarthy... if anybody should be calling anybody anything, i should be calling you unamerican for supporting and allowing illegal, disgusting and unconstitutional tactics that are against everything this country stands for. meanwhile, i'm the guy standing up for and backing the constitution. (you know, the whole equal rights for all mankind, liberty and freedom type of thing.) it's people like you, who support such heinous tactics, that make more people in this world hate america. i guess it's a good thing i don't give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks... and i'm unamerican? i wasn't the one parading around with anti-bush stickers for the past 4 years. it was the LIBERALS...and even though i think Obama is fucking retarded for closing guantanamo, i don't have bumper stickers all over my car saying i don't support my president, i don't write songs about having no faith in him...i stand behind my president...including Mr. Obama. i'm as american as it gets. i love my country so much, i'm willing to act "immoral" to protect us. obviously you'd rather risk innocent american lives because you feel uncomfortable getting your hands dirty. and whether you like it or not, torture will continue...hopefully they just do a better job of not letting us hear about it
|
|
|
Post by NYR on Mar 6, 2009 10:06:55 GMT -5
too bad i never had an anti-bus sticker, never wrote a song about him and never said i wanted him to fail.
you don't realize that you hurt more than you help when you torture. any military expert will tell you the same. it's almost as if you want to torture people just... because.
|
|
|
Post by TheEXPERIENCE on Mar 6, 2009 12:17:08 GMT -5
too bad i never had an anti-bus sticker, never wrote a song about him and never said i wanted him to fail. you don't realize that you hurt more than you help when you torture. any military expert will tell you the same. it's almost as if you want to torture people just... because. just because it's a last resort in dire situations...is it always gonna work? no. but when there are lives at stake, you do what you need to do, and i've got no problem with that
|
|
|
Post by NYR on Mar 6, 2009 14:53:10 GMT -5
too bad i never had an anti-bus sticker, never wrote a song about him and never said i wanted him to fail. you don't realize that you hurt more than you help when you torture. any military expert will tell you the same. it's almost as if you want to torture people just... because. just because it's a last resort in dire situations...is it always gonna work? no. but when there are lives at stake, you do what you need to do, and i've got no problem with that but where do you draw the line? when do we go too far? is it when we waterboard or suspend habeas corpus? or is it when we break the fourth, fifth, sixth and (especially) the eighth amendments? if you think one of these has gone too far, you've probably missed what's happened the past eight years.
|
|
|
Post by Guigs on Mar 6, 2009 15:12:57 GMT -5
Before we even get into issues about the legality of torture and its effectiveness, why don't you consider the fact that all most all of the guys who have been tortured for the past 8 years haven't been formally charged with any crimes, given a trial, or even have any substantial evidence suggesting that they are terrorists.
We've already heard many stories about innocent guys being released and telling us chilling stories of torture, and we are going to hear a lot more in the future. What is the net effect of torturing guys who haven't even been found guilty of anything? For starters you've basically violated their human rights, pissed all over the justice system and at the end of the day pissed off more people. You're no safer with torture than without it.
Isn't it hypocritical to be going around the world and waving the flag talking about "freedom" and "justice" while here at home we're no different than those regimes that we speak so harshly about. When North Koreans torture someone for speaking out against the gov't, isn't their government just protecting themselves and their citizens? They say it's for their safety too.
Experience you should go work for the North Korean government. They could use a few more people who think the same way as you.
|
|
|
Post by wankinginthebushes on Mar 6, 2009 16:06:55 GMT -5
consider the fact that all most all of the guys who have been tortured for the past 8 years haven't been formally charged with any crimes, given a trial, or even have any substantial evidence suggesting that they are terrorists. exactly
|
|
|
Post by TheEXPERIENCE on Mar 6, 2009 16:53:51 GMT -5
I love how you guys think this was solely a Bush thing and it's all been stopped under Obama. He can close guantanamo and give all his speeches about what a travesty torture is...but you damn well better believe it's still happening as we speak, and it will continue to happen. You're right, it really is terrible that they tortured people eventually found to be innocent, but that just means they need to be more conservative with who they arrest. I admit Bush got out of control with basically throwing anyone who was even questionable into a cell, but that doesn't mean torture didn't work in the cases where the prisoners were indeed terrorists. Look at the few guys who we know for a fact were involved in 9/11, the one's in our custody...Do you really believe getting people like Sheikh Mohammed a nice lawyer and treating them like any other domestic criminal is gonna get them to spill what they know? I don't expect him to break anyway since he's willing to die for his twisted beliefs, but there's no fucking chance of him breaking if you treat him like any other inmate. The only way to get more info about al-Qaeda and what he knows is by torturing the fuck. Now I'm obviously not going to convince you to change your mind, and there's no chance of you changing mine...but closing your eyes and pretending that all coercion has stopped is pretty naive. It's been going on forever and it will continue to go on...that's just what happens when you're put in a desperate situation and have to protect your safety. But if you sleep better at night pretending it doesn't happen, well that's your prerogative...
|
|
|
Post by ToneBender on Mar 6, 2009 19:11:07 GMT -5
I love how you guys think this was solely a Bush thing and it's all been stopped under Obama. He can close guantanamo and give all his speeches about what a travesty torture is...but you damn well better believe it's still happening as we speak, and it will continue to happen. You're right, it really is terrible that they tortured people eventually found to be innocent, but that just means they need to be more conservative with who they arrest. I admit Bush got out of control with basically throwing anyone who was even questionable into a cell, but that doesn't mean torture didn't work in the cases where the prisoners were indeed terrorists. Look at the few guys who we know for a fact were involved in 9/11, the one's in our custody...Do you really believe getting people like Sheikh Mohammed a nice lawyer and treating them like any other domestic criminal is gonna get them to spill what they know? I don't expect him to break anyway since he's willing to die for his twisted beliefs, but there's no fucking chance of him breaking if you treat him like any other inmate. The only way to get more info about al-Qaeda and what he knows is by torturing the fuck. Now I'm obviously not going to convince you to change your mind, and there's no chance of you changing mine...but closing your eyes and pretending that all coercion has stopped is pretty naive. It's been going on forever and it will continue to go on...that's just what happens when you're put in a desperate situation and have to protect your safety. But if you sleep better at night pretending it doesn't happen, well that's your prerogative... So you've said in repeated posts that you don't care how we're viewed in the world. Don't you understand that how we're viewed in the world is why we were attacked? We were attacked because people don't agree with our foreign policy decisions in the Middle East. This would be an example of them viewing us poorly. In other words, you don't care how we're viewed but we're attacked because of the way people view us. There's a tight rope to walk between appeasement and aggression in foreign policy, something that requires the ability to see shades of gray. Needless to say, you fell right off the tight rope about 20 posts ago.
|
|
|
Post by TheEXPERIENCE on Mar 6, 2009 20:51:55 GMT -5
I love how you guys think this was solely a Bush thing and it's all been stopped under Obama. He can close guantanamo and give all his speeches about what a travesty torture is...but you damn well better believe it's still happening as we speak, and it will continue to happen. You're right, it really is terrible that they tortured people eventually found to be innocent, but that just means they need to be more conservative with who they arrest. I admit Bush got out of control with basically throwing anyone who was even questionable into a cell, but that doesn't mean torture didn't work in the cases where the prisoners were indeed terrorists. Look at the few guys who we know for a fact were involved in 9/11, the one's in our custody...Do you really believe getting people like Sheikh Mohammed a nice lawyer and treating them like any other domestic criminal is gonna get them to spill what they know? I don't expect him to break anyway since he's willing to die for his twisted beliefs, but there's no fucking chance of him breaking if you treat him like any other inmate. The only way to get more info about al-Qaeda and what he knows is by torturing the fuck. Now I'm obviously not going to convince you to change your mind, and there's no chance of you changing mine...but closing your eyes and pretending that all coercion has stopped is pretty naive. It's been going on forever and it will continue to go on...that's just what happens when you're put in a desperate situation and have to protect your safety. But if you sleep better at night pretending it doesn't happen, well that's your prerogative... So you've said in repeated posts that you don't care how we're viewed in the world. Don't you understand that how we're viewed in the world is why we were attacked? We were attacked because people don't agree with our foreign policy decisions in the Middle East. This would be an example of them viewing us poorly. In other words, you don't care how we're viewed but we're attacked because of the way people view us. There's a tight rope to walk between appeasement and aggression in foreign policy, something that requires the ability to see shades of gray. Needless to say, you fell right off the tight rope about 20 posts ago. So the middle east hates us because we torture people we think are terrorists? It has nothing to do with us being the biggest ally of their arch enemy or the fact we stand for everything they hate?
|
|
|
Post by ToneBender on Mar 6, 2009 21:04:37 GMT -5
No, I said that people in the Middle East hate us because of our foreign policy. Perhaps you need some lessons in reading comprehension?
|
|
|
Post by TheEXPERIENCE on Mar 6, 2009 21:10:12 GMT -5
No, I said that people in the Middle East hate us because of our foreign policy. Perhaps you need some lessons in reading comprehension? Well considering the Middle East is made up of people, that's general who "the Middle East" refers too...dipshit
|
|
|
Post by ToneBender on Mar 6, 2009 21:22:25 GMT -5
No, I said that people in the Middle East hate us because of our foreign policy. Perhaps you need some lessons in reading comprehension? Well considering the Middle East is made up of people, that's general who "the Middle East" refers too...dipshit Perhaps you need to re-read this thread and point out where I simplified the discussion to "they hate us because we torture people we believe to be terrorists". I've repeatedly stated that this goes back 50 years+ and that consequently their actions are just in their minds. Just because many Americans are unfamiliar with the intricacies of our foreign policy in the Middle East over the past 50+ years doesn't mean that the people living in the Middle East are. I then pointed out that abandoning one's morals in the name of justice (i.e., torture) further perpetuates the problem. If we can justify torturing people without ever bringing charges against them in a court of law in the name of justice, why can't they justify attacking Americans in the name of justice and their safety? I'm not trying to give credence to their argument before you go down that route, so don't bother. I'm trying to point out that one mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Also, dipshit? Really? I hardly think that you're in a position to accuse someone else of ineptitude.
|
|
|
Post by halftheworld on Mar 6, 2009 21:23:30 GMT -5
I love how you guys think this was solely a Bush thing and it's all been stopped under Obama. He can close guantanamo and give all his speeches about what a travesty torture is...but you damn well better believe it's still happening as we speak, and it will continue to happen. You're right, it really is terrible that they tortured people eventually found to be innocent, but that just means they need to be more conservative with who they arrest. I admit Bush got out of control with basically throwing anyone who was even questionable into a cell, but that doesn't mean torture didn't work in the cases where the prisoners were indeed terrorists. Look at the few guys who we know for a fact were involved in 9/11, the one's in our custody...Do you really believe getting people like Sheikh Mohammed a nice lawyer and treating them like any other domestic criminal is gonna get them to spill what they know? I don't expect him to break anyway since he's willing to die for his twisted beliefs, but there's no fucking chance of him breaking if you treat him like any other inmate. The only way to get more info about al-Qaeda and what he knows is by torturing the fuck. Now I'm obviously not going to convince you to change your mind, and there's no chance of you changing mine...but closing your eyes and pretending that all coercion has stopped is pretty naive. It's been going on forever and it will continue to go on...that's just what happens when you're put in a desperate situation and have to protect your safety. But if you sleep better at night pretending it doesn't happen, well that's your prerogative... i fucking hate that approach: we are not happy with anyone violating human rights, but when problems arrive at my doorstep i have the right to violate them! seriously, what do you think about china? this government is acting like "in general i respect human rights, but in tibet things are a little bit more complicated." fuck that! either human rights are not debatable at all or they are nothing but a noble joke. i think mankind has worked and suffered hard to reach the point where, at least for some people, the respect for every human being became the utmost principle of the political actions of their elected governments! and if there are some sickos who try to kill me, i expect my government to invest more in safety without (!!!) harming anyones human rights. there's always potential to do more within an ethical scope! all those people at the tiananmen square in 1989 - they risked their lifes for the idea of living in freedom and democracy! the question is: what are we willing to risk? or do we simply sacrifice the idea of living in freedom and democracy? i don't want to live in a society, where torture is a legitimate way to treat people. and to say, that torture is the only way to deal with terrorists is utter bullshit - they never really tried! guantanamo was all about revenge. oh, and i don't think it's american to follow the elected president whereever he takes me! people have the right and the duty to stand up against a government, that is acting against the principles of the society!
|
|
|
Post by puretone on Mar 12, 2009 17:44:27 GMT -5
this is what's wrong with you people. isn't being safe worth the price of torturing people believed to be terrorists? it's like you'd rather blow up than have your country get there hands dirty. don't you realize torture is NECESSARY! these people are willing to die for their cause, yet you think we can get info out of them by asking them nicely and giving them their "human right." these people aren't fucking saints, there are reasons why they've been taken and interrogated. but oh no, heaven forbid we act "barbaric" and save American lives. this shit has been going on FOREVER and you guys act like it's the biggest atrocity and something that we just started doing. you do what it takes...and closing guantanamo and letting all these possible threats to our country go free is beyond stupid IMO. but right im sure they're all innocent... Theres been plenty of fuckers in the past picked up and tortued and they confessed to stuff they never did just to make it stop. No need to do it.
|
|
|
Post by Mario on Mar 19, 2009 19:43:43 GMT -5
92 tapes? I'm sure there were more
|
|