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9/11
Sept 9, 2020 13:24:16 GMT -5
Post by tiger40 on Sept 9, 2020 13:24:16 GMT -5
Well it's 19 years on Friday since this happened. I'm sick of all these terror attacks in the world. But sadly I don't think there will ever be peace.
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9/11
Sept 10, 2020 9:52:01 GMT -5
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Post by RocketMan on Sept 10, 2020 9:52:01 GMT -5
Well it's 19 years on Friday since this happened. I'm sick of all these terror attacks in the world. But sadly I don't think there will ever be peace. 75 years of peace in Europe. That seemed like utopia 100 years ago. It’s not impossible, but it’s a long way
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9/11
Sept 10, 2020 13:28:52 GMT -5
Post by tiger40 on Sept 10, 2020 13:28:52 GMT -5
Well it's 19 years on Friday since this happened. I'm sick of all these terror attacks in the world. But sadly I don't think there will ever be peace. 75 years of peace in Europe. That seemed like utopia 100 years ago. It’s not impossible, but it’s a long way I just think that these terror attacks these days are some how like we have never seen before.
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9/11
Sept 10, 2020 15:33:34 GMT -5
Post by Beady’s Here Now on Sept 10, 2020 15:33:34 GMT -5
If on 9/11/01 you were told that in the next 20 years, there wouldn’t be another major terrorist attack, you wouldn’t believe it. AlQaeda did try throughout the 2000s, but our intel services were transformed because of 9/11 to have finally worked.
I think it’s quite clear that we are in the post-9/11 era. Sure, there will always be terrorist attacks but I don’t see significant meddling in the Middle East. Right now, China is the imposing threat, and both Trump and Biden want an “America First”/“By America” policy.
Never forget 9/11, and at the same time after two decades, it’s time we move on as a nation - both are simultaneously possible.
And no, this is not politics - 9/11 defined and shaped my intellectual desires so I also hold this view both professionally as well as also personally.
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9/11
Sept 11, 2020 2:47:05 GMT -5
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RocketMan likes this
Post by globe on Sept 11, 2020 2:47:05 GMT -5
I don’t see significant meddling in the Middle East. Aye OK then.
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9/11
Sept 11, 2020 11:01:52 GMT -5
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Post by RocketMan on Sept 11, 2020 11:01:52 GMT -5
75 years of peace in Europe. That seemed like utopia 100 years ago. It’s not impossible, but it’s a long way I just think that these terror attacks these days are some how like we have never seen before. It’s still “better” than millions of people dying in unnecessary wars. And it’s part of the risk of living in a free liberal society. You can only prevent that by ultimate government control and that would take away your freedom. The only thing that would help is education, income and taking responsibility in your community so that people who feel left behind aren’t left alone
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9/11
Sept 11, 2020 13:47:48 GMT -5
Post by tiger40 on Sept 11, 2020 13:47:48 GMT -5
I think the world changed for ever on 9/11 and it won't change back. And yes there will always be terrorists if it's not the IS or Al-Qaeda it's someone else.
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9/11
Aug 15, 2021 13:38:46 GMT -5
Post by tiger40 on Aug 15, 2021 13:38:46 GMT -5
Hard to believe that we're coming up to 20 years since the 9/11 attacks. Crazy as it doesn't seem five minutes since that day.
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9/11
Aug 15, 2021 15:14:00 GMT -5
Post by Beady’s Here Now on Aug 15, 2021 15:14:00 GMT -5
Hard to believe that we're coming up to 20 years since the 9/11 attacks. Crazy as it doesn't seem five minutes since that day. As we see the Taliban take over. Biden has failed in every single policy area. Fuck this man.
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Post by girllikeabomb on Aug 15, 2021 15:23:04 GMT -5
Hard to believe that we're coming up to 20 years since the 9/11 attacks. Crazy as it doesn't seem five minutes since that day. As we see the Taliban take over. Biden has failed in every single policy area. Fuck this man. I have friends in Afghanistan so I'm beyond upset to see what is happening, truly devastated n my soul, but this is at least as much on your man as anyone. He's the one who made the idiotic deal with the Taliban that was always going to end like this. Biden just saw it through (which he didn't have to do, granted, but it was the opposite of a policy change from one administration to the other. Same policy. Same fucked policy that was never about the people, as it has been since the start.)
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9/11
Aug 15, 2021 17:32:05 GMT -5
Post by jezza2 on Aug 15, 2021 17:32:05 GMT -5
Hard to believe that we're coming up to 20 years since the 9/11 attacks. Crazy as it doesn't seem five minutes since that day. As we see the Taliban take over. Biden has failed in every single policy area. Fuck this man. By that logic, does that mean Gerald Ford lost the Vietnam war for the US? Or is it because Biden bad, orange man good?
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9/11
Aug 15, 2021 18:17:04 GMT -5
Post by Beady’s Here Now on Aug 15, 2021 18:17:04 GMT -5
As we see the Taliban take over. Biden has failed in every single policy area. Fuck this man. By that logic, does that mean Gerald Ford lost the Vietnam war for the US? Or is it because Biden bad, orange man good? There’s a consistent academic debate over whether Richard Nixon left Vietnam in ‘peace with honor.’ For Joe Biden and Afghanistan, the answer is a definitive No. We needed to leave. But… not like this…
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Post by jezza2 on Aug 15, 2021 18:46:48 GMT -5
By that logic, does that mean Gerald Ford lost the Vietnam war for the US? Or is it because Biden bad, orange man good? There’s a consistent academic debate over whether Richard Nixon left Vietnam in ‘peace with honor.’ For Joe Biden and Afghanistan, the answer is a definitive No. We needed to leave. But… not like this… I'd argue its fitting. History repeats itself, and how perfect of an ending to war that we could never win would be a photo of a Chinook leaving an embassy. Blame the failures of Afghanistan on Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden, not Biden alone. We don't put the blame of Vietnam on just Nixon, but Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon. Everyone had a role to play in the failure of both wars.
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9/11
Aug 15, 2021 22:07:39 GMT -5
Post by girllikeabomb on Aug 15, 2021 22:07:39 GMT -5
By that logic, does that mean Gerald Ford lost the Vietnam war for the US? Or is it because Biden bad, orange man good? There’s a consistent academic debate over whether Richard Nixon left Vietnam in ‘peace with honor.’ For Joe Biden and Afghanistan, the answer is a definitive No. We needed to leave. But… not like this… Which academics would those be who think the Vietnam war ended well? Probably not the ones who connect the destabilization of Cambodia with a genocide that killed nearly 2 million people, among other things that will haunt history forever. The sad truth is that counterinsurgencies rarely end well. They don’t work in nearly all but the most simplistic situations, they foment never-ending cycles of violence and yet every few years people delude themselves once again into believing that they do. Trump actually had an even earlier deadline for leaving, not a more cautious one. You're getting too caught up in partisan politics, which is not where the problem lies. It's deeper than that, Beady. Getting out was always going to be a nightmare no matter who was sitting in the chair. It could have been done far better than it is, and it should have been done far better than it is. But there’s no difference in the intelligence Biden is getting than Trump would have received. The Generals in charge are the same. The intelligence itself was bad just like it’s been bad the whole time. The problem is the counterinsurgency way of doing things.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Aug 15, 2021 23:23:13 GMT -5
Not sure what people expected really. We illegally went to the middle east for their resources. We stayed for their resources. We illegally occupied their country for decades, genociding their civilians and killing their soldiers, during which the insurgency only gained traction despite our best counter efforts. And now we're finally leaving. That insurgency is naturally going to take back full control. That's hardly any surprise. Nor should it be a surprise that the military industrial complex is hooting and hollering for us to return so they can continue making their billions in profit off those coveted resources. Don't dare think for a moment they give any fucks for the people who are going to be killed by the extremist groups. They only care to the extent that they can use it as an excuse to get back into the country to start making money again. They would gladly sacrifice American soldiers lives to attain it as well as exterminate each and every last brown person if it meant they could bleed those oil fields dry. That is all that matters to the elites. They don't care about freedom or moral decency. It's capitalism.
People in the middle east have been fighting for thousands of years. It was true before we invaded just as it's true now that we have left. But at the very least, there aren't U.S. soldiers doing the killing as well as being killed. It's not our job to police the world and we clearly aren't doing it for most countries anyway. We're not helping Palestine. We're not helping the Uyghurs. I mean, we consider Saudi Arabia our allies despite how deplorable they are(because it's profitable).
I don't like that these horrible things are happening to these groups of people, but I think it ought to be up to the direct neighbors of those countries to intervene and stop the atrocities. It shouldn't have anything to do with us UNLESS that involves us taking in ANYONE who is wanting to flee those hell holes. I think we ought to welcome all refugees into the United States, because that is the only possible way the lives of those people in the middle east will change and improve. They need to remove themselves from the hatred, the violence and the extremism and find a better life elsewhere. The people who want to remain in the middle east do not want us there. It's that simple. So leave them be. Leave them to make their own decisions and if anybody wants to get out, then be the helping hand to get them on their feet in a new world.
Unfortunately, the United States is not exactly friendly towards immigrants if those immigrants have brown skin and that's absolutely fucking evil. But in an ideal world, if we actually cared about such atrocities being committed around the world, we'd welcome anyone looking to escape it. Still in shock over Kamala Harris and her "Do not come. Do not come." speech. A new low for the democratic party. Further proving they are scumbags just like the republicans.
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9/11
Aug 16, 2021 3:46:28 GMT -5
Post by girllikeabomb on Aug 16, 2021 3:46:28 GMT -5
I don't like that these horrible things are happening to these groups of people, but I think it ought to be up to the direct neighbors of those countries to intervene and stop the atrocities. It shouldn't have anything to do with us UNLESS that involves us taking in ANYONE who is wanting to flee those hell holes. Agree with some of what you've said, but not this. That's a good thing to say before there's been any kind of intervention or military action ... but once you’ve been in a country for 20 years and promises have been made to people counting on you, it gets a lot more morally slippery to just jump ship and say it’s the neighbor's problem now. Right now, there are a lot of remarkable Afghan individuals, real people, who may die or lose everything in the hours, days and month ahead. I know a few Afghan women and have been completely blown away by their courage. Now they face a dark road most of us can’t even begin to imagine, and the reality is that most don't have the resources to even begin the nearly impossible process of fleeing. Beyond the political picture it's just devastating on a human level.
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9/11
Aug 16, 2021 5:07:30 GMT -5
Post by oasisserbia on Aug 16, 2021 5:07:30 GMT -5
i watched a program and it was even suggested (now im not suppoting this theory at alll as its as taboo as it comes) that the US was behind it to create a state of panic, its been done before, reichstag fire and hitler anyone? And in 2020 also
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Post by RocketMan on Aug 16, 2021 6:29:44 GMT -5
Every military intervention by the US post WW2 should be a case for den Haag. But I guess only China and Russia are truly evil, America brought PEACE 🇺🇸 and FREEDOM 🇺🇸
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9/11
Aug 16, 2021 10:21:46 GMT -5
Post by Beady’s Here Now on Aug 16, 2021 10:21:46 GMT -5
I can’t believe I bought into the Bush Doctrine of the 2000s. I was indeed, once a strong Neo-Con. Pushing our style of government onto nations of other cultures under the guise of ‘Nation Building’ is just Imperialism but with a cuter name. And it’s arrogant as fuck. Never again. globe
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9/11
Aug 16, 2021 11:04:24 GMT -5
Post by The Invisible Sun on Aug 16, 2021 11:04:24 GMT -5
I don't like that these horrible things are happening to these groups of people, but I think it ought to be up to the direct neighbors of those countries to intervene and stop the atrocities. It shouldn't have anything to do with us UNLESS that involves us taking in ANYONE who is wanting to flee those hell holes. Agree with some of what you've said, but not this. That's a good thing to say before there's been any kind of intervention or military action ... but once you’ve been in a country for 20 years and promises have been made to people counting on you, it gets a lot more morally slippery to just jump ship and say it’s the neighbor's problem now. Right now, there are a lot of remarkable Afghan individuals, real people, who may die or lose everything in the hours, days and month ahead. I know a few Afghan women and have been completely blown away by their courage. Now they face a dark road most of us can’t even begin to imagine, and the reality is that most don't have the resources to even begin the nearly impossible process of fleeing. Beyond the political picture it's just devastating on a human level. There is no way to transition out. The government the Taliban just overthrew was the government we created and supported. It was never going to remain standing once we left. There is no middle ground. Either we had to stay indefinitely, or leave. Leaving reduces the total amount of death and suffering in the long run. Most of the inhabitants didn't want us there to begin with. They didn't want our democracy. They don't want our religion. They wanted us to leave. And we should never have been there to begin with. Now I get it, a lot of people have been raised during the time the country was occupied and of course know nothing of how it was previously. Hopefully, they will leave for the U.S. and other places and we certainly should aid that. But in terms of military action, it shouldn't be up to to a country two oceans away to intervene anymore. We spent 20 years doing it and for all the wrong reasons.
But ask yourself this question, whether we pulled out in 2005 or 2015 or now, would the consequence have been any different? The Taliban was always going to retake power. So then the argument becomes, well, we invaded already, so now we have to stay forever, because if we leave, the Taliban will seize full control of the country again.
What would be the long term consequences of staying? I can hazard a guess. Maybe by the 60 year mark, we will have exterminated most of the populace or at least enough to fully assert our control and foothold into Asia and slap our flag onto the map ... Nothing good comes from staying unless you're one of the elites in the U.S. No good for the people here at home. Nor for any of the people in Afghanistan. Leaving results in a lot of short term misery, but spares long-term suffering. We can't take our eye off the ball.
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Post by glider on Aug 16, 2021 13:20:43 GMT -5
Hard to believe that we're coming up to 20 years since the 9/11 attacks. Crazy as it doesn't seem five minutes since that day. As we see the Taliban take over. Western government period has failed in every single policy area. Fuck this man. Fixed
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9/11
Aug 16, 2021 13:58:55 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by RocketMan on Aug 16, 2021 13:58:55 GMT -5
As we see the Taliban take over. Western government period has failed in every single policy area. Fuck this man. Fixed It’s embarrassing. First, we bomb these countries, then we occupy them mostly for resources and political influence, then we pretend that we try to help them build their democracy and army, only to fuck off almost completely out of the blue with no significant progress whatsoever and leave them alone fighting against the very threat we initially wanted to defeat. Wtf And now of course we are on the verge of another humanitarian catastrophe and don’t act at all. Because of course there are two important elections in Germany and France and they need the votes from all those pieces of shit who are against immigration
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9/11
Aug 16, 2021 14:27:20 GMT -5
Post by Beady’s Here Now on Aug 16, 2021 14:27:20 GMT -5
As we see the Taliban take over. Western government period has failed in every single policy area. Fuck this man. Fixed I’ll accept that.
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9/11
Aug 16, 2021 15:06:38 GMT -5
Post by girllikeabomb on Aug 16, 2021 15:06:38 GMT -5
There is no way to transition out. The government the Taliban just overthrew was the government we created and supported. It was never going to remain standing once we left. There is no middle ground. Either we had to stay indefinitely, or leave. Leaving reduces the total amount of death and suffering in the long run. Most of the inhabitants didn't want us there to begin with. They didn't want our democracy. They don't want our religion. They wanted us to leave. And we should never have been there to begin with. Now I get it, a lot of people have been raised during the time the country was occupied and of course know nothing of how it was previously. Hopefully, they will leave for the U.S. and other places and we certainly should aid that. But in terms of military action, it shouldn't be up to to a country two oceans away to intervene anymore. We spent 20 years doing it and for all the wrong reasons.
But ask yourself this question, whether we pulled out in 2005 or 2015 or now, would the consequence have been any different? The Taliban was always going to retake power. So then the argument becomes, well, we invaded already, so now we have to stay forever, because if we leave, the Taliban will seize full control of the country again.
What would be the long term consequences of staying? I can hazard a guess. Maybe by the 60 year mark, we will have exterminated most of the populace or at least enough to fully assert our control and foothold into Asia and slap our flag onto the map ... Nothing good comes from staying unless you're one of the elites in the U.S. No good for the people here at home. Nor for any of the people in Afghanistan. Leaving results in a lot of short term misery, but spares long-term suffering. We can't take our eye off the ball.
Have seen a number of people writing in the last few days of better ways to transition. It was never going to be pretty, totally agree. But it absolutely could have been done better. There simply isn't any question that it didn't even go as they had planned. The stuff about what "they" want just doesn't work for me based on personal experience. Though you'd never know it from what we see in movies and TV, Afghans are no more monolithic than Englanders, Americans or the French. They have many different POVs, and in Kabul, in particular, there are many young, smart, idealistic students, not so different from people we might know (albeit formed by another culture) who aren't religious fundamentalists and do want and even dare to envision a different future. Many, many people do not support the Taliban, but they absolutely fear them because they know what they are capable of doing. As I saw someone say last night about why Afghans surrendered so easily: "Most people want to keep their heads attached to their bodies." I absolutely agree that coming into the country as a counter-insurgency was both a con and a massive delusion and it was hugely harmful. I was against going in after 9/11 (long before I'd ever met anyone who lived there and that did change my mind about what Afghanistan is like, but not about military intervention.) But I will rage against a world that betrays so many, leaves them to die, and then shrugs and says "oh well, not our problem." It is our problem. We created it, and we've earned it as our problem. There are always consequences. It's the height of American hubris to think we can just walk away and act like those consequences don't belong to us.
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9/11
Aug 16, 2021 15:42:37 GMT -5
Post by The Invisible Sun on Aug 16, 2021 15:42:37 GMT -5
There is no way to transition out. The government the Taliban just overthrew was the government we created and supported. It was never going to remain standing once we left. There is no middle ground. Either we had to stay indefinitely, or leave. Leaving reduces the total amount of death and suffering in the long run. Most of the inhabitants didn't want us there to begin with. They didn't want our democracy. They don't want our religion. They wanted us to leave. And we should never have been there to begin with. Now I get it, a lot of people have been raised during the time the country was occupied and of course know nothing of how it was previously. Hopefully, they will leave for the U.S. and other places and we certainly should aid that. But in terms of military action, it shouldn't be up to to a country two oceans away to intervene anymore. We spent 20 years doing it and for all the wrong reasons.
But ask yourself this question, whether we pulled out in 2005 or 2015 or now, would the consequence have been any different? The Taliban was always going to retake power. So then the argument becomes, well, we invaded already, so now we have to stay forever, because if we leave, the Taliban will seize full control of the country again.
What would be the long term consequences of staying? I can hazard a guess. Maybe by the 60 year mark, we will have exterminated most of the populace or at least enough to fully assert our control and foothold into Asia and slap our flag onto the map ... Nothing good comes from staying unless you're one of the elites in the U.S. No good for the people here at home. Nor for any of the people in Afghanistan. Leaving results in a lot of short term misery, but spares long-term suffering. We can't take our eye off the ball.
Have seen a number of people writing in the last few days of better ways to transition. It was never going to be pretty, totally agree. But it absolutely could have been done better. There simply isn't any question that it didn't even go as they had planned. The stuff about what "they" want just doesn't work for me based on personal experience. Though you'd never know it from what we see in movies and TV, Afghans are no more monolithic than Englanders, Americans or the French. They have many different POVs, and in Kabul, in particular, there are many young, smart, idealistic students, not so different from people we might know (albeit formed by another culture) who aren't religious fundamentalists and do want and even dare to envision a different future. Many, many people do not support the Taliban, but they absolutely fear them because they know what they are capable of doing. As I saw someone say last night about why Afghans surrendered so easily: "Most people want to keep their heads attached to their bodies." I absolutely agree that coming into the country as a counter-insurgency was both a con and a massive delusion and it was hugely harmful. I was against going in after 9/11 (long before I'd ever met anyone who lived there and that did change my mind about what Afghanistan is like, but not about military intervention.) But I will rage against a world that betrays so many, leaves them to die, and then shrugs and says "oh well, not our problem." It is our problem. We created it, and we've earned it as our problem. There are always consequences. It's the height of American hubris to think we can just walk away and act like those consequences don't belong to us. It certainly could have been done better. But what's done is done. The most important bit was that it was done. There's no version of this that doesn't see the Taliban take control after our exit. Granted, maybe we could have left them with less infrastructure and less supplies and equipment and so on. But there's no fixing that now. Not without further human cost.
I'm not suggesting we act like those consequences of exiting don't belong to us. I'm suggesting we go about resolving the problems in a different way than what half the country seems to be suggesting currently (Invade again and forever occupy). I think we need to send aid for the purpose of getting out anybody who wants to leave and start a new life elsewhere and do so for at least the next 20 years. It would just be more productive than sending troops in to die and to kill more civilians. Wars must end.
At the end of the day, what I want for America is to not be Team America World Police anymore and to not be imperialistic.
The actual people responsible for over 200k+ deaths will never be served justice. Doesn't mean we need to pin that on the youths of our military indefinitely, nor encroach on a people who really don't want us there. I understand that you don't believe that to be true, you mentioned there's a variety of opinions, and I tend to agree that there are. I still think the majority of Afghani's would prefer us not to be there. Whether or not they'd prefer the Taliban to be in charge is a different matter. But it seems clear to me that at the very least, they don't want us to be in charge either.
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