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Post by The Invisible Sun on Dec 6, 2023 18:32:47 GMT -5
This might be the worst massacre I've seen in my lifetime (that has been mainstream news). And it's blowing my mind that governments around the world are just shrugging their shoulders allowing it to happen, even while the citizens (such as here in the U.S.), are calling for an end to the bloodshed, occupation and apartheid. And we have a lot of leverage to end it! It might be as simple as cutting or threatening to cut financial aid. We could potentially negotiate a permanent ceasefire, conditioned on the aid we send. And we just aren't doing it.
I find it even more alarming that a group of people, many of whom who were the primary victims or descendants/relatives of victims of the holocaust during World War II, could ever subject similar horrors onto others. George Santayana's overused quote is of special relevance to this situation.
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Dec 6, 2023 18:50:48 GMT -5
I think they are helping the Shia who are massacred everywhere else. Do you condemn Hamas? Then you condone Shia massacres.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Dec 6, 2023 19:06:02 GMT -5
I think they are helping the Shia who are massacred everywhere else. Do you condemn Hamas? Then you condone Shia massacres. Yes. I condemn any nation or group that does genocide. Israel. Hamas. The United States. All of them.
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Post by Sadie on Dec 6, 2023 19:44:51 GMT -5
The sooner people understand that you can condemn Hamas, feel awful for the hostages and other Israelis killed in the initial attack and simultaneously maintain that NOTHING gives Israel carte blanche to try to exterminate a population in response, the better. The attack on October 7th did not happen in a vacuum, there's hundreds of years of history behind it and the fact that the Palestinians are not being shown even a shred of sympathy by most of the media/Western governments disgusts me
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Dec 7, 2023 5:56:58 GMT -5
The sooner people understand that you can condemn Hamas, feel awful for the hostages and other Israelis killed in the initial attack and simultaneously maintain that NOTHING gives Israel carte blanche to try to exterminate a population in response, the better. The attack on October 7th did not happen in a vacuum, there's hundreds of years of history behind it and the fact that the Palestinians are not being shown even a shred of sympathy by most of the media/Western governments disgusts me Bang on the money this. Exactly how I feel about it.
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Post by Lennon2217 on Dec 7, 2023 22:23:27 GMT -5
The sooner people understand that you can condemn Hamas, feel awful for the hostages and other Israelis killed in the initial attack and simultaneously maintain that NOTHING gives Israel carte blanche to try to exterminate a population in response, the better. The attack on October 7th did not happen in a vacuum, there's hundreds of years of history behind it and the fact that the Palestinians are not being shown even a shred of sympathy by most of the media/Western governments disgusts me Bang on the money this. Exactly how I feel about it. One of the things I HATE about this conflict is that if you say anything negative about Israel you get labeled as anti-semetic but that has literally nothing to do with it. A person can criticize a governments policies without attacking ones religion. I hate that Israel basically uses this as a bulletproof vest with the media and America. Like it gives them extra protection from being vilified in anyway.
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Post by NYR on Dec 8, 2023 19:05:11 GMT -5
I'm not going to discuss Israel/Palestine on here, especially on a thread calling it a genocide. (Loaded language.) However, I just wanted pop in to say one thing… For those of you who want to properly criticize Israel without unintentionally delving into antisemitism, I highly suggest checking out this short pamphlet called The Past Didn't Go Anywhere. It's a handy little guide worth your time.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Dec 10, 2023 15:19:25 GMT -5
I'm not going to discuss Israel/Palestine on here, especially on a thread calling it a genocide. (Loaded language.) However, I just wanted pop in to say one thing… For those of you who want to properly criticize Israel without unintentionally delving into antisemitism, I highly suggest checking out this short pamphlet called The Past Didn't Go Anywhere. It's a handy little guide worth your time. It's not loaded language. It's a genocide. Full stop.
As defined by the United Nations:
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
1. Killing members of the group; 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Dec 14, 2023 13:18:13 GMT -5
It's so strange to see so many people (usually conservatives) jumping aboard the bandwagon that acknowledging Israel's actions as genocidal in this conflict is equivalent to antisemitism. It's utter nonsense. Are American Jews protesting against Israel right now also anti-Semitic? What about the Jewish protesters within Israel (who are also being targeted for condemning their government)? Are they antisemitic when they acknowledge their governments actions as genocidal? What would it take for you to be convinced that any government is doing a genocide? Where is the line? Honest question. You do not get accuse someone of being antisemitic just because they say something that you don't like, don't want to hear or don't agree with. That makes you dishonest. It's a lazy excuse to avoid facing the reality of the horror that is going on in Gaza.
And worse, it's an excuse that is allowing a government to butcher tens of thousands of people, causing immeasurable damage and suffering to millions and also risks expanding this conflict to the broader Middle East.
NYR says they don't want to have the discussion. Yet they so easily make accusations of antisemitism without having the decency to support their accusation with a reasoned argument. Frankly, I see their actions in this thread as nothing short of cowardly along with anyone who lacks the courage or integrity to look at the situation in Gaza and call it anything other than the humanitarian crisis and ongoing atrocity committed by a right wing authoritarian government that it is.
It's mind boggling that people are genuinely excusing a genocide. The fact that you can look at a civilian death rate of more than 90% and not call that a genocide is absolute insanity. Even the Hamas attack on Oct 7th, committed by terrorists, had a lower civilian death rate. Israel has bombed schools, hospitals, residences, U.N camps, fleeing Gazan's (after being told to flee). They have killed something like fifty journalists (for obvious reasons). They are shooting children in the streets. The Israeli government is targeting civilians and you're making excuses for them and refusing to have the discussion. Shame on you.
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Post by Sadie on Dec 14, 2023 14:52:52 GMT -5
It's so strange to see so many people (usually conservatives) jumping aboard the bandwagon that acknowledging Israel's actions as genocidal in this conflict is equivalent to antisemitism. It's utter nonsense. Are American Jews protesting against Israel right now also anti-Semitic? What about the Jewish protesters within Israel (who are also being targeted for condemning their government)? Are they antisemitic when they acknowledge their governments actions as genocidal? What would it take for you to be convinced that any government is doing a genocide? Where is the line? Honest question. You do not get accuse someone of being antisemitic just because they say something that you don't like, don't want to hear or don't agree with. That makes you dishonest. It's a lazy excuse to avoid facing the reality of the horror that is going on in Gaza.
And worse, it's an excuse that is allowing a government to butcher tens of thousands of people, causing immeasurable damage and suffering to millions and also risks expanding this conflict to the broader Middle East.
NYR says they don't want to have the discussion. Yet they so easily make accusations of antisemitism without having the decency to support their accusation with a reasoned argument. Frankly, I see their actions in this thread as nothing short of cowardly along with anyone who lacks the courage or integrity to look at the situation in Gaza and call it anything other than the humanitarian crisis and ongoing atrocity committed by a right wing authoritarian government that it is.
It's mind boggling that people are genuinely excusing a genocide. The fact that you can look at a civilian death rate of more than 90% and not call that a genocide is absolute insanity. Even the Hamas attack on Oct 7th, committed by terrorists, had a lower civilian death rate. Israel has bombed schools, hospitals, residences, U.N camps, fleeing Gazan's (after being told to flee). They have killed something like fifty journalists (for obvious reasons). They are shooting children in the streets. The Israeli government is targeting civilians and you're making excuses for them and refusing to have the discussion. Shame on you.
I agree with every single word. Not sure if you've come across my twitter account but I've been retweeting non-stop about what's going on and the amount of followers I've lost because of it is actually shocking. I had to turn off replies in the end due to people giving me shit for it, some guy even told me that he's unfollowing purely because I've stopped posting about Oasis. Sorry, but I think speaking up about a genocide is more important right now
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Dec 14, 2023 15:46:33 GMT -5
It's so strange to see so many people (usually conservatives) jumping aboard the bandwagon that acknowledging Israel's actions as genocidal in this conflict is equivalent to antisemitism. It's utter nonsense. Are American Jews protesting against Israel right now also anti-Semitic? What about the Jewish protesters within Israel (who are also being targeted for condemning their government)? Are they antisemitic when they acknowledge their governments actions as genocidal? What would it take for you to be convinced that any government is doing a genocide? Where is the line? Honest question. You do not get accuse someone of being antisemitic just because they say something that you don't like, don't want to hear or don't agree with. That makes you dishonest. It's a lazy excuse to avoid facing the reality of the horror that is going on in Gaza.
And worse, it's an excuse that is allowing a government to butcher tens of thousands of people, causing immeasurable damage and suffering to millions and also risks expanding this conflict to the broader Middle East.
NYR says they don't want to have the discussion. Yet they so easily make accusations of antisemitism without having the decency to support their accusation with a reasoned argument. Frankly, I see their actions in this thread as nothing short of cowardly along with anyone who lacks the courage or integrity to look at the situation in Gaza and call it anything other than the humanitarian crisis and ongoing atrocity committed by a right wing authoritarian government that it is.
It's mind boggling that people are genuinely excusing a genocide. The fact that you can look at a civilian death rate of more than 90% and not call that a genocide is absolute insanity. Even the Hamas attack on Oct 7th, committed by terrorists, had a lower civilian death rate. Israel has bombed schools, hospitals, residences, U.N camps, fleeing Gazan's (after being told to flee). They have killed something like fifty journalists (for obvious reasons). They are shooting children in the streets. The Israeli government is targeting civilians and you're making excuses for them and refusing to have the discussion. Shame on you.
I agree with every single word. Not sure if you've come across my twitter account but I've been retweeting non-stop about what's going on and the amount of followers I've lost because of it is actually shocking. I had to turn off replies in the end due to people giving me shit for it, some guy even told me that he's unfollowing purely because I've stopped posting about Oasis. Sorry, but I think speaking up about a genocide is more important right now Thanks. I'm glad there are folks on this forum doing the right thing. This shit is horrific. Some of the footage I've seen makes me physically ill. But yeah, this conflict has really revealed who subscribe to and stand by humanist principles and those who don't at all. I've unfollowed quite a few because they said the most psychotic shit who I thought were decent people. It's definitely more important at the moment. Keep up the fight!
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Post by settingson on Dec 14, 2023 21:33:21 GMT -5
What Hamas did on October 7th was appalling. What Israel has done since is appalling.
The player in this latest act of the centuries-old tragedy that pisses me off the most? The Iranian government.
Israel and Saudi were getting close to a historic deal and that was the last thing the Iranian government wanted ... and now, here we are. How very convenient for them.
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Post by mimmihopps on Dec 15, 2023 5:21:19 GMT -5
What Hamas did on October 7th was appalling. What Israel has done since is appalling. In the end we, human-being destroy each other.
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Post by SallyIsTheMainCharacter on Dec 15, 2023 10:37:22 GMT -5
Though generally apartheid, genocide and chanting heat up the debate furiously, the main discussion should still be STOP OCCUPATION. I’m still wondering if current scene is pushing some to a more defensive nature.
Like a prof of my school was splitting class to Jewish students and others and specifically told them holocaust ONLY killed this number and the 50 yr war has brought more death than that, so Israel is nazis to palestein. I know what they are onto but downplaying the holocaust isn’t the right move. And if the classroom isnt inherently worded well, it could only be worse in daily life and on social.
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Howdo
Oasis Roadie
Listen kids, i'd rather walk!
Posts: 480
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Post by Howdo on Dec 15, 2023 11:16:12 GMT -5
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Post by Sadie on Dec 20, 2023 23:26:48 GMT -5
One of the most egregious examples of double standards I have EVER had the misfortune of seeing
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 21, 2023 4:07:36 GMT -5
What Hamas did on October 7th was appalling. What Israel has done since 1948 is appalling. In the end we, human-being destroy each other. This context is important, I feel.
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Lundblad
Oasis Roadie
Nothing ever lasts forever
Posts: 430
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Post by Lundblad on Jan 9, 2024 12:00:23 GMT -5
I am not interested in defending every action of the Israeli government or the Israeli army, but the situation is of course more complicated than what many people make it out to be. As far as I understand it is not incorrect to call the attack on Oct 7 a pogrom. It was the deadliest attack on Jews since World War 2. How do you negotiate a ceasefire with an enemy who carries out such an attack – an enemy that has one motive: To destroy you? An enemy that does not acknowledge your existence? Isn't it the job of the Israeli government to defend its citizens (arabs included) and do everything in its power to prevent another similar attack?
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Post by gottabecrazy on Jan 9, 2024 12:26:29 GMT -5
How good to read people debating ideas and feelings, not attacking each other for saying what they feel. I congratulate you people.
And yes I support everything's been said here. I condemn all act of violence against any human life. I condemn the holocaust and I condemn the what's being done on Palestine since forever. We truly deserve a meteorite and a reset and see if we can make it better in a new civilization because we're heading straight to chaos.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 10, 2024 10:23:43 GMT -5
I am not interested in defending every action of the Israeli government or the Israeli army, but the situation is of course more complicated than what many people make it out to be. As far as I understand it is not incorrect to call the attack on Oct 7 a pogrom. It was the deadliest attack on Jews since World War 2. How do you negotiate a ceasefire with an enemy who carries out such an attack – an enemy that has one motive: To destroy you? An enemy that does not acknowledge your existence? Isn't it the job of the Israeli government to defend its citizens (arabs included) and do everything in its power to prevent another similar attack? You're right to say it's more complicated. And missing in your response is the acknowledgement that Palestinians have been subjected to occupation and apartheid for decades. In addition, have to deal with IDF harassing, beating and murdering Palestinians, including children, for decades. Those are humanitarian crimes and most of the world has remained silent and afraid to condemn Israel ... for decades.
If you were subjected to those conditions, you would not be very pleased, right? Would you ever willingly live in such conditions? Would you have a right to defend your people from occupation, apartheid, brutality and murder? Even Israel has acknowledged that they are responsible for creating Hamas. Their actions radicalized a small percentage of Palestinians.
Entire revolutions have been fought for suffering far less severe crimes and living conditions.
So yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. But so does Palestine. And in this case, the power balance between these two groups, is not remotely similar. Israel controls their food, their electricity, their water (and have shut it all off currently). They control everything entering and leaving Gaza. They restrict freedom of movement of all Gazan's. And they have been carpet bombing Palestine for decades. And that was all before October 7th. Gaza is called an open-air prison for a reason.
The reality is, that Oct 7th is a response to decades worth of humanitarian crimes that have went almost ignored and unpunished by the United Nations (What's even the point of international law if it's not enforced?). I say ignored because they have recognized the crimes, they just haven't done anything about it. No consequences. And as terrible as the attack was on Oct 7th, it pales in comparison to the devastation and loss of life that Israel has wrought. Not just since Oct 7th. But even prior to it. But there is no mention of that behavior in your post. Is that history suddenly erased or justified just because a terrorist organization, comprised of Gazan's finally fought back against their oppressors?
Apartheid is wrong. Occupation is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Taking over someones land or home because you believe you're entitled to it based off of some holy text, is wrong. Just consider for a moment the amount of journalists that have been targeted by the IDF since Oct 7th. That happens for one reason and one reason only and I am confident you know why. Even Jews within Israel, who have condemned the actions of their own government, are being targeted at the moment. What other period of history have we seen that before?
Even when the numbers are crunched, the terrorist organization known as Hamas has a significantly lower civilian casualty rate than Israel. If what they did on Oct 7th is defined as terrorism, doesn't that make Israel the even worse terrorists than Hamas? There is no crime that Hamas committed on Oct 7th, that has not been subjected onto Palestinians for decades at the hands of Israel, before and after Oct 7th. What is terrorism if not the mass violent targeting of civilians?
We are seeing a new holocaust unfold before our very eyes. And while at the start of WWII the U.S took a neutral position... right now, we have sided with the far-right authoritarian fascists doing the holocaust and are enabling them to continue their extermination. What a disgrace my country has become (the politicians in control, currently not representing the people).
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Post by settingson on Jan 10, 2024 11:07:24 GMT -5
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Lundblad
Oasis Roadie
Nothing ever lasts forever
Posts: 430
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Post by Lundblad on Jan 10, 2024 14:02:01 GMT -5
I am not interested in defending every action of the Israeli government or the Israeli army, but the situation is of course more complicated than what many people make it out to be. As far as I understand it is not incorrect to call the attack on Oct 7 a pogrom. It was the deadliest attack on Jews since World War 2. How do you negotiate a ceasefire with an enemy who carries out such an attack – an enemy that has one motive: To destroy you? An enemy that does not acknowledge your existence? Isn't it the job of the Israeli government to defend its citizens (arabs included) and do everything in its power to prevent another similar attack? You're right to say it's more complicated. And missing in your response is the acknowledgement that Palestinians have been subjected to occupation and apartheid for decades. In addition, have to deal with IDF harassing, beating and murdering Palestinians, including children, for decades. Those are humanitarian crimes and most of the world has remained silent and afraid to condemn Israel ... for decades. If you were subjected to those conditions, you would not be very pleased, right? Would you ever willingly live in such conditions? Would you have a right to defend your people from occupation, apartheid, brutality and murder? Even Israel has acknowledged that they are responsible for creating Hamas. Their actions radicalized a small percentage of Palestinians.
Entire revolutions have been fought for suffering far less severe crimes and living conditions. So yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. But so does Palestine. And in this case, the power balance between these two groups, is not remotely similar. Israel controls their food, their electricity, their water (and have shut it all off currently). They control everything entering and leaving Gaza. They restrict freedom of movement of all Gazan's. And they have been carpet bombing Palestine for decades. And that was all before October 7th. Gaza is called an open-air prison for a reason.
The reality is, that Oct 7th is a response to decades worth of humanitarian crimes that have went almost ignored and unpunished by the United Nations (What's even the point of international law if it's not enforced?). I say ignored because they have recognized the crimes, they just haven't done anything about it. No consequences. And as terrible as the attack was on Oct 7th, it pales in comparison to the devastation and loss of life that Israel has wrought. Not just since Oct 7th. But even prior to it. But there is no mention of that behavior in your post. Is that history suddenly erased or justified just because a terrorist organization, comprised of Gazan's finally fought back against their oppressors?
Apartheid is wrong. Occupation is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Taking over someones land or home because you believe you're entitled to it based off of some holy text, is wrong. Just consider for a moment the amount of journalists that have been targeted by the IDF since Oct 7th. That happens for one reason and one reason only and I am confident you know why. Even Jews within Israel, who have condemned the actions of their own government, are being targeted at the moment. What other period of history have we seen that before?
Even when the numbers are crunched, the terrorist organization known as Hamas has a significantly lower civilian casualty rate than Israel. If what they did on Oct 7th is defined as terrorism, doesn't that make Israel the even worse terrorists than Hamas? There is no crime that Hamas committed on Oct 7th, that has not been subjected onto Palestinians for decades at the hands of Israel, before and after Oct 7th. What is terrorism if not the mass violent targeting of civilians?
We are seeing a new holocaust unfold before our very eyes. And while at the start of WWII the U.S took a neutral position... right now, we have sided with the far-right authoritarian fascists doing the holocaust and are enabling them to continue their extermination. What a disgrace my country has become (the politicians in control, currently not representing the people).
I appreciate that you took your time to engage and made a reply, but – I am sorry, several of your statements are ridiculous. In the first half of your post you make several points that may be factually correct in many aspects, such as the ones about the living conditions of palestinians, radicalisation etc. I don't draw the same conclusions as you from them, but you can make those arguments. But the fact that the situation in Palestine in many ways has been bad cannot be used as a justification for the Oct 7 attacks. I am not sure if you mean to do that, but that is the logical conclusion of what you are writing. And the logical reasons for Israel's actions and its right to defend its citizens has to be taken into account. I think the mistake that many western observers make is that they view this conflict from a post-colonial perspective, or see a perceived "stronger" side in Israel and a "weaker" side in Palestinians – you mention the "power balance". A power balance can explain certain actions and behaviours and the appeal of extremist ideas. But it does not justify the mass slaughter and raping of women and children on Oct 7. Oct 7 is not Israel's fault, to put it simply. You also make a strange and offensive statement: "Taking over someones land or home because you believe you're entitled to it based off of some holy text, is wrong." If we set aside the fact that the Zionist movement developed in the 19th Century due to the persecution of Jews in Europe – the fact is that Israel has existed since 1948. The Jewish settlers have been back in the region for more than 100 years. They won't go away. The cold fact is that Palestinians and its leadership need to deal with this fact and accept it. There will be no peace or development until they do. The end is worse. "We are seeing a new holocaust unfold before our very eyes. And while at the start of WWII the U.S took a neutral position... right now, we have sided with the far-right authoritarian fascists doing the holocaust and are enabling them to continue their extermination." This is an outrageous and frankly offensive statement. The holocaust was the deliberate, organised and industrialised killing of 6 million jews, in order to exterminate the Jewish people. This is also an example of why it is easy to disregard criticism of Israel as antisemitism, in the way that the industrialised murder of 6 million jews is used as a rhetorical weapon against the state of Israel's actions. My advice to you is to choose your wording more carefully and not throw around terms as "fascists", "holocaust", "genocide", "extermination", "apartheid" as liberally.
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Post by matt on Jan 10, 2024 15:55:47 GMT -5
I am not interested in defending every action of the Israeli government or the Israeli army, but the situation is of course more complicated than what many people make it out to be. As far as I understand it is not incorrect to call the attack on Oct 7 a pogrom. It was the deadliest attack on Jews since World War 2. How do you negotiate a ceasefire with an enemy who carries out such an attack – an enemy that has one motive: To destroy you? An enemy that does not acknowledge your existence? Isn't it the job of the Israeli government to defend its citizens (arabs included) and do everything in its power to prevent another similar attack? You're right to say it's more complicated. And missing in your response is the acknowledgement that Palestinians have been subjected to occupation and apartheid for decades. In addition, have to deal with IDF harassing, beating and murdering Palestinians, including children, for decades. Those are humanitarian crimes and most of the world has remained silent and afraid to condemn Israel ... for decades. If you were subjected to those conditions, you would not be very pleased, right? Would you ever willingly live in such conditions? Would you have a right to defend your people from occupation, apartheid, brutality and murder? Even Israel has acknowledged that they are responsible for creating Hamas. Their actions radicalized a small percentage of Palestinians.
Entire revolutions have been fought for suffering far less severe crimes and living conditions. So yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. But so does Palestine. And in this case, the power balance between these two groups, is not remotely similar. Israel controls their food, their electricity, their water (and have shut it all off currently). They control everything entering and leaving Gaza. They restrict freedom of movement of all Gazan's. And they have been carpet bombing Palestine for decades. And that was all before October 7th. Gaza is called an open-air prison for a reason.
The reality is, that Oct 7th is a response to decades worth of humanitarian crimes that have went almost ignored and unpunished by the United Nations (What's even the point of international law if it's not enforced?). I say ignored because they have recognized the crimes, they just haven't done anything about it. No consequences. And as terrible as the attack was on Oct 7th, it pales in comparison to the devastation and loss of life that Israel has wrought. Not just since Oct 7th. But even prior to it. But there is no mention of that behavior in your post. Is that history suddenly erased or justified just because a terrorist organization, comprised of Gazan's finally fought back against their oppressors?
Apartheid is wrong. Occupation is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Taking over someones land or home because you believe you're entitled to it based off of some holy text, is wrong. Just consider for a moment the amount of journalists that have been targeted by the IDF since Oct 7th. That happens for one reason and one reason only and I am confident you know why. Even Jews within Israel, who have condemned the actions of their own government, are being targeted at the moment. What other period of history have we seen that before?
Even when the numbers are crunched, the terrorist organization known as Hamas has a significantly lower civilian casualty rate than Israel. If what they did on Oct 7th is defined as terrorism, doesn't that make Israel the even worse terrorists than Hamas? There is no crime that Hamas committed on Oct 7th, that has not been subjected onto Palestinians for decades at the hands of Israel, before and after Oct 7th. What is terrorism if not the mass violent targeting of civilians?
We are seeing a new holocaust unfold before our very eyes. And while at the start of WWII the U.S took a neutral position... right now, we have sided with the far-right authoritarian fascists doing the holocaust and are enabling them to continue their extermination. What a disgrace my country has become (the politicians in control, currently not representing the people).
The violence imposed by a colonial power on a region only traumatises those within it, Jewish or Muslim, particularly in the Middle East and results in that violence being repeated down the line. It's seen throughout history where the persecuted groups in history see no real resolution to that trauma resulting in that cycle of violence being repeated by the persecuted on both sides. That bit in bold.... that's primarily the fault of colonial legacy, particularly Britain. That homeland didn't just happen on religious texts alone, and to be honest, its quite worrying and distressing that you assume only that...
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 11, 2024 1:41:56 GMT -5
You're right to say it's more complicated. And missing in your response is the acknowledgement that Palestinians have been subjected to occupation and apartheid for decades. In addition, have to deal with IDF harassing, beating and murdering Palestinians, including children, for decades. Those are humanitarian crimes and most of the world has remained silent and afraid to condemn Israel ... for decades. If you were subjected to those conditions, you would not be very pleased, right? Would you ever willingly live in such conditions? Would you have a right to defend your people from occupation, apartheid, brutality and murder? Even Israel has acknowledged that they are responsible for creating Hamas. Their actions radicalized a small percentage of Palestinians.
Entire revolutions have been fought for suffering far less severe crimes and living conditions. So yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. But so does Palestine. And in this case, the power balance between these two groups, is not remotely similar. Israel controls their food, their electricity, their water (and have shut it all off currently). They control everything entering and leaving Gaza. They restrict freedom of movement of all Gazan's. And they have been carpet bombing Palestine for decades. And that was all before October 7th. Gaza is called an open-air prison for a reason.
The reality is, that Oct 7th is a response to decades worth of humanitarian crimes that have went almost ignored and unpunished by the United Nations (What's even the point of international law if it's not enforced?). I say ignored because they have recognized the crimes, they just haven't done anything about it. No consequences. And as terrible as the attack was on Oct 7th, it pales in comparison to the devastation and loss of life that Israel has wrought. Not just since Oct 7th. But even prior to it. But there is no mention of that behavior in your post. Is that history suddenly erased or justified just because a terrorist organization, comprised of Gazan's finally fought back against their oppressors?
Apartheid is wrong. Occupation is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Taking over someones land or home because you believe you're entitled to it based off of some holy text, is wrong. Just consider for a moment the amount of journalists that have been targeted by the IDF since Oct 7th. That happens for one reason and one reason only and I am confident you know why. Even Jews within Israel, who have condemned the actions of their own government, are being targeted at the moment. What other period of history have we seen that before?
Even when the numbers are crunched, the terrorist organization known as Hamas has a significantly lower civilian casualty rate than Israel. If what they did on Oct 7th is defined as terrorism, doesn't that make Israel the even worse terrorists than Hamas? There is no crime that Hamas committed on Oct 7th, that has not been subjected onto Palestinians for decades at the hands of Israel, before and after Oct 7th. What is terrorism if not the mass violent targeting of civilians?
We are seeing a new holocaust unfold before our very eyes. And while at the start of WWII the U.S took a neutral position... right now, we have sided with the far-right authoritarian fascists doing the holocaust and are enabling them to continue their extermination. What a disgrace my country has become (the politicians in control, currently not representing the people).
I appreciate that you took your time to engage and made a reply, but – I am sorry, several of your statements are ridiculous. In the first half of your post you make several points that may be factually correct in many aspects, such as the ones about the living conditions of palestinians, radicalisation etc. I don't draw the same conclusions as you from them, but you can make those arguments. But the fact that the situation in Palestine in many ways has been bad cannot be used as a justification for the Oct 7 attacks. I am not sure if you mean to do that, but that is the logical conclusion of what you are writing. And the logical reasons for Israel's actions and its right to defend its citizens has to be taken into account. I think the mistake that many western observers make is that they view this conflict from a post-colonial perspective, or see a perceived "stronger" side in Israel and a "weaker" side in Palestinians – you mention the "power balance". A power balance can explain certain actions and behaviours and the appeal of extremist ideas. But it does not justify the mass slaughter and raping of women and children on Oct 7. Oct 7 is not Israel's fault, to put it simply. You also make a strange and offensive statement: "Taking over someones land or home because you believe you're entitled to it based off of some holy text, is wrong." If we set aside the fact that the Zionist movement developed in the 19th Century due to the persecution of Jews in Europe – the fact is that Israel has existed since 1948. The Jewish settlers have been back in the region for more than 100 years. They won't go away. The cold fact is that Palestinians and its leadership need to deal with this fact and accept it. There will be no peace or development until they do. The end is worse. "We are seeing a new holocaust unfold before our very eyes. And while at the start of WWII the U.S took a neutral position... right now, we have sided with the far-right authoritarian fascists doing the holocaust and are enabling them to continue their extermination." This is an outrageous and frankly offensive statement. The holocaust was the deliberate, organised and industrialised killing of 6 million jews, in order to exterminate the Jewish people. This is also an example of why it is easy to disregard criticism of Israel as antisemitism, in the way that the industrialised murder of 6 million jews is used as a rhetorical weapon against the state of Israel's actions. My advice to you is to choose your wording more carefully and not throw around terms as "fascists", "holocaust", "genocide", "extermination", "apartheid" as liberally. But the fact that the situation in Palestine in many ways has been bad cannot be used as a justification for the Oct 7 attacks. I am not sure if you mean to do that, but that is the logical conclusion of what you are writing.
It's not a justification. it's an explanation. Just like how you explained in your first response that Israel has a right to defend itself in response to being attacked, and you went the extra mile in calling it a "duty". That too is an explanation for Israels actions. And a duty to do what exactly? Kill civilians at a 90+ percent rate? Cause and effect is relevant here. Especially if we are to convince world citizens to press for ceasefire. Lives are at stake.
You keep reasserting that Israel has the right to defend itself, but that ends at defense. What they are doing is offense. They have invaded the territory they are occupying, conducted a medieval style siege and have leveled it to the ground, killing upwards of 31,000 people, including over 10,000 children. Now they are positioning to do the same in the South of Gaza (after telling Palestinians to flee there).
the fact is that Israel has existed since 1948. The Jewish settlers have been back in the region for more than 100 years. They won't go away. The cold fact is that Palestinians and its leadership need to deal with this fact and accept it. There will be no peace or development until they do.
They don't have to 'go away' as you put it, to co-exist. They just have to not bulldoze Palestinian homes who have, as you put it, lived in the region for more than 100 years. I don't think that's asking much. Do you not recognize a difference between forcible relocation and consensual relocation? The latter is fine if parties can come to an agreeable position. It's not okay when you're doing it just because you want the land to expand settlements for Jewish only people. A religion does not grant one the right to remove the rights of those whom they dislike and impose their own will onto them. Surely you understand this and therefore must be against building ethnic settlements at the expense of people who were still living in those locations?
The holocaust(Palestinian Holocaust) was(is) the deliberate, organised and industrialised killing of 6 million jews (31,000+ Palestinians), in order to exterminate the Jewish(Palestinian) people.
What the fuck do you think is going on in Palestine? What you have just posted is a complete denial of reality. I mean, maybe you can point to the fact Israeli government only meet 2 of the three criteria beyond all reasonable doubt. Industrialized killing, perhaps is iffy and dependent on perspective. But that's still 2 out of three. And the latter could still be argued that they are just skipping the death camps and moving straight to the slaughter via their persistent bombing that has leveled nearly all of north Gaza. Is it justified to butcher them all just because Israel hasn't rounded up the Palestinians before ending their lives?
How bad does this need to get before you recognize it's a genocide? I'm asking seriously. Name your number. At what figure is a 90%+ civilian casualty rate simply too much for you? 41k? 51k? 101k? 201k? Where does it cross the line from mere casualties of war to ... okay, maybe Israel is doing ethnic cleansing? What will it take to get you to support the Palestinians? What will cause you to speak out against Israel's brutality? What is your limit for brutality?
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jan 11, 2024 2:01:31 GMT -5
You're right to say it's more complicated. And missing in your response is the acknowledgement that Palestinians have been subjected to occupation and apartheid for decades. In addition, have to deal with IDF harassing, beating and murdering Palestinians, including children, for decades. Those are humanitarian crimes and most of the world has remained silent and afraid to condemn Israel ... for decades. If you were subjected to those conditions, you would not be very pleased, right? Would you ever willingly live in such conditions? Would you have a right to defend your people from occupation, apartheid, brutality and murder? Even Israel has acknowledged that they are responsible for creating Hamas. Their actions radicalized a small percentage of Palestinians.
Entire revolutions have been fought for suffering far less severe crimes and living conditions. So yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. But so does Palestine. And in this case, the power balance between these two groups, is not remotely similar. Israel controls their food, their electricity, their water (and have shut it all off currently). They control everything entering and leaving Gaza. They restrict freedom of movement of all Gazan's. And they have been carpet bombing Palestine for decades. And that was all before October 7th. Gaza is called an open-air prison for a reason.
The reality is, that Oct 7th is a response to decades worth of humanitarian crimes that have went almost ignored and unpunished by the United Nations (What's even the point of international law if it's not enforced?). I say ignored because they have recognized the crimes, they just haven't done anything about it. No consequences. And as terrible as the attack was on Oct 7th, it pales in comparison to the devastation and loss of life that Israel has wrought. Not just since Oct 7th. But even prior to it. But there is no mention of that behavior in your post. Is that history suddenly erased or justified just because a terrorist organization, comprised of Gazan's finally fought back against their oppressors?
Apartheid is wrong. Occupation is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Taking over someones land or home because you believe you're entitled to it based off of some holy text, is wrong. Just consider for a moment the amount of journalists that have been targeted by the IDF since Oct 7th. That happens for one reason and one reason only and I am confident you know why. Even Jews within Israel, who have condemned the actions of their own government, are being targeted at the moment. What other period of history have we seen that before?
Even when the numbers are crunched, the terrorist organization known as Hamas has a significantly lower civilian casualty rate than Israel. If what they did on Oct 7th is defined as terrorism, doesn't that make Israel the even worse terrorists than Hamas? There is no crime that Hamas committed on Oct 7th, that has not been subjected onto Palestinians for decades at the hands of Israel, before and after Oct 7th. What is terrorism if not the mass violent targeting of civilians?
We are seeing a new holocaust unfold before our very eyes. And while at the start of WWII the U.S took a neutral position... right now, we have sided with the far-right authoritarian fascists doing the holocaust and are enabling them to continue their extermination. What a disgrace my country has become (the politicians in control, currently not representing the people).
That bit in bold.... that's primarily the fault of colonial legacy, particularly Britain. That homeland didn't just happen on religious texts alone, and to be honest, its quite worrying and distressing that you assume only that... The point is it's happening now. Right before your eyes. It no longer matters how anyone got there. It matters who is there now and what is being done to them. Religion is a prime motivator for the extremists on both sides of the aisle here. Hamas are comprised of religious extremists just as Netanyahu's government are religious extremists. But only one side of these religious extremists are actively engaging in a genocide and it's not Palestine. Non-Hamas, Palestinian civilians are being targeted. That's the only way you get to 90+% civilian casualty rates.
I don't know about you, but I don't like far-right authoritarian governments doing fascism. No matter if it's a future path here in the U.S or being done now all the way in Israel. When these governments start killing their "neighbors" (I'm being far too generous) in mass, it's typically not a good sign. Religious nationalist governments don't tend to have the best historical track records.
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