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Post by marianna on Dec 25, 2019 10:58:45 GMT -5
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Post by bt95 on Jan 4, 2020 8:56:39 GMT -5
Being a Tory is a state of mind. It's that ignorant condescension, the shield from the harshness of society, the self-reverential rejection of the communities you came from. Noel's been radiating Tory vibes for a while now. I voted Labour in the last election purely because I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory. But if Labour were gonna get beat, I'm glad they got smashed as much as they did. Utterly useless bunch. Anyway, I read this interview a while back and it's no different to any other interview he's given, apart from who the interviewer is. And that's largely irrelevant anyway. She's just a journalist, at the end of the day.
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Post by matt on Jan 4, 2020 10:07:33 GMT -5
Money, fame and greed feeds the ego and more often that not flushes out the character of people. A lack of groundedness also leads to a lack of creativity, losing that sixth sense of songwriting and the more spiritual and universal truths that great songwriting provides. It's the caution against a materialist way of living - a bit like the film Local Hero that implicitly suggests this by losing their community and one character dourly claiming 'we're just going to have to get used to being stinking rich'.
I think you can be rich and famous and still have a social conscience towards the people and places you were once intertwined with but its rare to see. But I doubt Noel has that - once he became rich and famous, the references to the kind of places he came from is non-existant, likewise with Morrissey. It's no surprise he makes such cold and detached viewpoints. I don't care what his views on Corbyn are as I don't care for Corbyn myself, I'll go to more informed thinkers for a critique on him but Noel doesn't even offer his vision and what things should be like, and there's no lambasting of the Conservative policies that will further destroy the environment he came from. He might correctly say that he got out of his situation by himself in spite of his community (so the perfect individualist Conservative take) but the community also informed his character and what he wrote songs about.
It's fine to leave the places you once lived in behind but to outright abandon it without any further thought or consideration is pretty callous and leaves an individual without any moral and political foundation. It ends up resulting in poorly informed political opinions like Noel.
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Jan 4, 2020 12:19:23 GMT -5
Being a Tory is a state of mind. It's that ignorant condescension, the shield from the harshness of society, the self-reverential rejection of the communities you came from. Noel's been radiating Tory vibes for a while now. I voted Labour in the last election purely because I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory. But if Labour were gonna get beat, I'm glad they got smashed as much as they did. Utterly useless bunch. Anyway, I read this interview a while back and it's no different to any other interview he's given, apart from who the interviewer is. And that's largely irrelevant anyway. She's just a journalist, at the end of the day. Keep apologising for him mate. If you thought that manifesto was useless you're not all that different to Noel. I think you wasted your vote, should have voted for the Tories.
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Post by marianna on Jan 4, 2020 14:07:24 GMT -5
Does anybody know how Liam voted, by the way? Labour?
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Post by bt95 on Jan 4, 2020 15:10:45 GMT -5
I voted Labour in the last election purely because I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory. But if Labour were gonna get beat, I'm glad they got smashed as much as they did. Utterly useless bunch. Anyway, I read this interview a while back and it's no different to any other interview he's given, apart from who the interviewer is. And that's largely irrelevant anyway. She's just a journalist, at the end of the day. Keep apologising for him mate. If you thought that manifesto was useless you're not all that different to Noel. I think you wasted your vote, should have voted for the Tories. I voted Labour because I didn't want to vote Tory. I was initially going to vote Yorkshire Party but I was worried the usually safe Labour seat that I'm in (Hemsworth - Red since 1918) might swing. So I went Labour. I'm glad I did because for once my vote actually counted - Hemsworth is still Labour but by a very thin margin. It's a constituency mainly of ex-miners/their families, and a lot of old pit villages etc. The type of attitude you're showing to me there - that kind of attitude of Holier than Thou, Labour can do no wrong, is what half the problem is. That manifesto - while it had a lot going for it - collapsed as soon as it was under any scrutiny. Also, I didn't actually say the manifesto was useless, but I had no faith in any of the useless tossers in the party to deliver on it. But it's easier to blame everyone else. We can't possibly be the problem? Failed to get in over the Tories in the last four elections (I'm aware, very different manifestos for the first two elections)... but must be everyone else. Give me a break. And I don't know what I'm supposedly an apologist? What has Noel done here that he should say sorry for? Buying a massive house?
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Post by bt95 on Jan 4, 2020 15:12:51 GMT -5
Does anybody know how Liam voted, by the way? Labour? Who knows until someone asks him. Pretty sure he said he didn't vote either in the last election (2017). Wonder if that means he's 'as good as a Tory' as well. And whatever he voted is entirely up to him and shouldn't be judged as either some incredibly good act or an act of evil. But that's what the current bunch of Momentum fanboys and girls like to paint things as.
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Post by bt95 on Jan 4, 2020 15:16:30 GMT -5
Money, fame and greed feeds the ego and more often that not flushes out the character of people. A lack of groundedness also leads to a lack of creativity, losing that sixth sense of songwriting and the more spiritual and universal truths that great songwriting provides. It's the caution against a materialist way of living - a bit like the film Local Hero that implicitly suggests this by losing their community and one character dourly claiming 'we're just going to have to get used to being stinking rich'. I think you can be rich and famous and still have a social conscience towards the people and places you were once intertwined with but its rare to see. But I doubt Noel has that - once he became rich and famous, the references to the kind of places he came from is non-existant, likewise with Morrissey. It's no surprise he makes such cold and detached viewpoints. I don't care what his views on Corbyn are as I don't care for Corbyn myself, I'll go to more informed thinkers for a critique on him but Noel doesn't even offer his vision and what things should be like, and there's no lambasting of the Conservative policies that will further destroy the environment he came from. He might correctly say that he got out of his situation by himself in spite of his community (so the perfect individualist Conservative take) but the community also informed his character and what he wrote songs about. It's fine to leave the places you once lived in behind but to outright abandon it without any further thought or consideration is pretty callous and leaves an individual without any moral and political foundation. It ends up resulting in poorly informed political opinions like Noel. But how has he abandoned the place in anyway more than anyone else has? That's my view. And like you, I don't go to Noel Gallagher for my political opinions. He's said himself he didn't vote. That's up to him. It's his choice. I don't agree with it, but it's not an evil thing. I have a very individualist outlook on life too. I probably have got that attitude from Oasis - and it's why I love the band so much. They've done so much more for me than just get me into music. They've taught me that if you want to go and achieve something then you have to do it yourself. Not rely on others on the way. It doesn't mean I'm bitter or calous or don't care about others. It's just a way of thinking of how you want to get somewhere. And there's other ways to do it too, I'm sure.
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Post by freya on Jan 4, 2020 15:17:12 GMT -5
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Post by bt95 on Jan 4, 2020 15:22:15 GMT -5
He also said on the One Show in December that he didn't vote in this one. So who knows?
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Post by bt95 on Jan 4, 2020 15:22:54 GMT -5
But yeh, if he did vote Greens - probably the most left-wing party, surely - then it's turned into 'he's a closet Tory'...
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Post by marianna on Jan 4, 2020 15:40:57 GMT -5
Really? Funny thing is, apparently they both said they'd vote green then, regardless of actually voting or not.
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Post by matt on Jan 4, 2020 17:23:38 GMT -5
Money, fame and greed feeds the ego and more often that not flushes out the character of people. A lack of groundedness also leads to a lack of creativity, losing that sixth sense of songwriting and the more spiritual and universal truths that great songwriting provides. It's the caution against a materialist way of living - a bit like the film Local Hero that implicitly suggests this by losing their community and one character dourly claiming 'we're just going to have to get used to being stinking rich'. I think you can be rich and famous and still have a social conscience towards the people and places you were once intertwined with but its rare to see. But I doubt Noel has that - once he became rich and famous, the references to the kind of places he came from is non-existant, likewise with Morrissey. It's no surprise he makes such cold and detached viewpoints. I don't care what his views on Corbyn are as I don't care for Corbyn myself, I'll go to more informed thinkers for a critique on him but Noel doesn't even offer his vision and what things should be like, and there's no lambasting of the Conservative policies that will further destroy the environment he came from. He might correctly say that he got out of his situation by himself in spite of his community (so the perfect individualist Conservative take) but the community also informed his character and what he wrote songs about. It's fine to leave the places you once lived in behind but to outright abandon it without any further thought or consideration is pretty callous and leaves an individual without any moral and political foundation. It ends up resulting in poorly informed political opinions like Noel. But how has he abandoned the place in anyway more than anyone else has? That's my view. And like you, I don't go to Noel Gallagher for my political opinions. He's said himself he didn't vote. That's up to him. It's his choice. I don't agree with it, but it's not an evil thing. I have a very individualist outlook on life too. I probably have got that attitude from Oasis - and it's why I love the band so much. They've done so much more for me than just get me into music. They've taught me that if you want to go and achieve something then you have to do it yourself. Not rely on others on the way. It doesn't mean I'm bitter or calous or don't care about others. It's just a way of thinking of how you want to get somewhere. And there's other ways to do it too, I'm sure. I'm not having a go at yourself or the individualistic mindset, I think that's fine to be aspirational but in a healthy society it needs to be tempered with a communitarian one also and my feeling is he just has none of that, like most of the country. You can be wildly successful but there is a responsibility to recognise and do something about the social ills in the country. To be purely driven by one self is something I've never understood and the obsessions with the self, competition and the general individualistic drive is something that is causing harmful effects. I think the neoliberal obsession of the individual is a major reason for the rapid rise in depression in this country - a country that is ideologically driven as individualistic is one with no networks of social capital and feelings of connection with one another - the feelings of isolation, even amongst materially wealthy people, is insidious over time as people lose a sense of place, a sense of belonging and any sense of meaning. Nobody is immune to it - that's how much of a grip it has on the country. The extremity of this isolation, promoted by neoliberalism, is ill feeling towards others and a lack of empathy causing harm towards other groups. Everything becomes splintered. I think Noel's attitudes sum up these problems with the self. He has no social conscience with what he is saying and his attitude is 'fuck em and leave them all behind, I did it all by myself' is the kind of egotism and selfishness that society celebrates sadly. Footballers seem to get a bad rep but a lot of them came from similar tough backgrounds to Noel, and when they became millionaires, they set up their own charities and social networks/enterprises in the places they grew up in. You see someone like Stormzy also using his position for the betterment of those in a similar positions to where he grew up in. Noel, on the other hand, seems to positively revel in sticking two fingers up at it all. It is not to berate success which is to be celebrated, it is to berate selfishness.
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Post by marianna on Jan 5, 2020 6:37:32 GMT -5
I always found this (1:28 onwards) quite interesting regarding this matter. There is more at the tail end of the podcast, in the wrap up comments.
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Post by bt95 on Jan 5, 2020 7:11:23 GMT -5
But how has he abandoned the place in anyway more than anyone else has? That's my view. And like you, I don't go to Noel Gallagher for my political opinions. He's said himself he didn't vote. That's up to him. It's his choice. I don't agree with it, but it's not an evil thing. I have a very individualist outlook on life too. I probably have got that attitude from Oasis - and it's why I love the band so much. They've done so much more for me than just get me into music. They've taught me that if you want to go and achieve something then you have to do it yourself. Not rely on others on the way. It doesn't mean I'm bitter or calous or don't care about others. It's just a way of thinking of how you want to get somewhere. And there's other ways to do it too, I'm sure. I'm not having a go at yourself or the individualistic mindset, I think that's fine to be aspirational but in a healthy society it needs to be tempered with a communitarian one also and my feeling is he just has none of that, like most of the country. You can be wildly successful but there is a responsibility to recognise and do something about the social ills in the country. To be purely driven by one self is something I've never understood and the obsessions with the self, competition and the general individualistic drive is something that is causing harmful effects. I think the neoliberal obsession of the individual is a major reason for the rapid rise in depression in this country - a country that is ideologically driven as individualistic is one with no networks of social capital and feelings of connection with one another - the feelings of isolation, even amongst materially wealthy people, is insidious over time as people lose a sense of place, a sense of belonging and any sense of meaning. Nobody is immune to it - that's how much of a grip it has on the country. The extremity of this isolation, promoted by neoliberalism, is ill feeling towards others and a lack of empathy causing harm towards other groups. Everything becomes splintered. I think Noel's attitudes sum up these problems with the self. He has no social conscience with what he is saying and his attitude is 'fuck em and leave them all behind, I did it all by myself' is the kind of egotism and selfishness that society celebrates sadly. Footballers seem to get a bad rep but a lot of them came from similar tough backgrounds to Noel, and when they became millionaires, they set up their own charities and social networks/enterprises in the places they grew up in. You see someone like Stormzy also using his position for the betterment of those in a similar positions to where he grew up in. Noel, on the other hand, seems to positively revel in sticking two fingers up at it all. It is not to berate success which is to be celebrated, it is to berate selfishness. I agree with all of that. I just don't like how people get labelled Tory for not going with the Monentum group think. And for me, collectivism is just as dangerous as individualism can be - the idea that everybody should think the same way because of their race/religion/gender/sexuality etc - and you can't tell me that that isn't a big factor in the current left-wing politics, because it is). The referendum and elections have proved it. But what - in this particular interview - has Noel done/said that's so selfish? Not vote Labour? A party which is so atrocious it has been demolished by the worst, most horrid bunch of Tories in decades - not once, but twice, in three years? For all we know, he could give hundreds of thousands a year to charity, or whatever. We don't know. We know he's always been a big patron of TCT etc. Look at Oasis when they came through - surely Noel with his 'power to the people' stuff was just doing similar to what Stormzy is now? Maybe in 20 years, if Stormzy is as successful then as he is now, his outlook will change too?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 9:47:39 GMT -5
Being a Tory is a state of mind. It's that ignorant condescension, the shield from the harshness of society, the self-reverential rejection of the communities you came from. Noel's been radiating Tory vibes for a while now. I voted Labour in the last election purely because I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory. But if Labour were gonna get beat, I'm glad they got smashed as much as they did. Utterly useless bunch. Anyway, I read this interview a while back and it's no different to any other interview he's given, apart from who the interviewer is. And that's largely irrelevant anyway. She's just a journalist, at the end of the day. Tory.
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Post by Manualex on Jan 5, 2020 11:05:09 GMT -5
I voted Labour in the last election purely because I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory. But if Labour were gonna get beat, I'm glad they got smashed as much as they did. Utterly useless bunch. Anyway, I read this interview a while back and it's no different to any other interview he's given, apart from who the interviewer is. And that's largely irrelevant anyway. She's just a journalist, at the end of the day. Tory. And thats How you get brexit/Trump in the US. Man if someone disagreeing with your belifs is a Tory(enemy) then the uk is fucked for the forseeable future.
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Post by matt on Jan 5, 2020 12:25:27 GMT -5
I voted Labour in the last election purely because I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory. But if Labour were gonna get beat, I'm glad they got smashed as much as they did. Utterly useless bunch. Anyway, I read this interview a while back and it's no different to any other interview he's given, apart from who the interviewer is. And that's largely irrelevant anyway. She's just a journalist, at the end of the day. Tory. Yeah, that’s really going to fucking help...
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Jan 5, 2020 12:34:01 GMT -5
But how has he abandoned the place in anyway more than anyone else has? That's my view. And like you, I don't go to Noel Gallagher for my political opinions. He's said himself he didn't vote. That's up to him. It's his choice. I don't agree with it, but it's not an evil thing. I have a very individualist outlook on life too. I probably have got that attitude from Oasis - and it's why I love the band so much. They've done so much more for me than just get me into music. They've taught me that if you want to go and achieve something then you have to do it yourself. Not rely on others on the way. It doesn't mean I'm bitter or calous or don't care about others. It's just a way of thinking of how you want to get somewhere. And there's other ways to do it too, I'm sure. I'm not having a go at yourself or the individualistic mindset, I think that's fine to be aspirational but in a healthy society it needs to be tempered with a communitarian one also and my feeling is he just has none of that, like most of the country. You can be wildly successful but there is a responsibility to recognise and do something about the social ills in the country. To be purely driven by one self is something I've never understood and the obsessions with the self, competition and the general individualistic drive is something that is causing harmful effects. I think the neoliberal obsession of the individual is a major reason for the rapid rise in depression in this country - a country that is ideologically driven as individualistic is one with no networks of social capital and feelings of connection with one another - the feelings of isolation, even amongst materially wealthy people, is insidious over time as people lose a sense of place, a sense of belonging and any sense of meaning. Nobody is immune to it - that's how much of a grip it has on the country. The extremity of this isolation, promoted by neoliberalism, is ill feeling towards others and a lack of empathy causing harm towards other groups. Everything becomes splintered. I think Noel's attitudes sum up these problems with the self. He has no social conscience with what he is saying and his attitude is 'fuck em and leave them all behind, I did it all by myself' is the kind of egotism and selfishness that society celebrates sadly. Footballers seem to get a bad rep but a lot of them came from similar tough backgrounds to Noel, and when they became millionaires, they set up their own charities and social networks/enterprises in the places they grew up in. You see someone like Stormzy also using his position for the betterment of those in a similar positions to where he grew up in. Noel, on the other hand, seems to positively revel in sticking two fingers up at it all. It is not to berate success which is to be celebrated, it is to berate selfishness. And, you know, there's no such thing as society.
Margaret Thatcher, 1987.
Fatastic post of yours, Matt. We kind of just know now that self-obsession has fuelled an epidemic of mental health issues in the 21st century, but I've always just looked at it from the Big Tech-corroding-our-souls angle, when really we should be analysing the core values that underpin our society. And, of course, it's still essentially Thatcher and Reagan's short-termist neoliberalism for most of us. It shouldn't be; those ideas should've been consigned to the history books after the global crash. And I think you're right: while people continue to feel divorced from their societies and their sense of place, we should expect our contemporary international political and spirital crises to worsen.
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Post by matt on Jan 5, 2020 12:38:03 GMT -5
I'm not having a go at yourself or the individualistic mindset, I think that's fine to be aspirational but in a healthy society it needs to be tempered with a communitarian one also and my feeling is he just has none of that, like most of the country. You can be wildly successful but there is a responsibility to recognise and do something about the social ills in the country. To be purely driven by one self is something I've never understood and the obsessions with the self, competition and the general individualistic drive is something that is causing harmful effects. I think the neoliberal obsession of the individual is a major reason for the rapid rise in depression in this country - a country that is ideologically driven as individualistic is one with no networks of social capital and feelings of connection with one another - the feelings of isolation, even amongst materially wealthy people, is insidious over time as people lose a sense of place, a sense of belonging and any sense of meaning. Nobody is immune to it - that's how much of a grip it has on the country. The extremity of this isolation, promoted by neoliberalism, is ill feeling towards others and a lack of empathy causing harm towards other groups. Everything becomes splintered. I think Noel's attitudes sum up these problems with the self. He has no social conscience with what he is saying and his attitude is 'fuck em and leave them all behind, I did it all by myself' is the kind of egotism and selfishness that society celebrates sadly. Footballers seem to get a bad rep but a lot of them came from similar tough backgrounds to Noel, and when they became millionaires, they set up their own charities and social networks/enterprises in the places they grew up in. You see someone like Stormzy also using his position for the betterment of those in a similar positions to where he grew up in. Noel, on the other hand, seems to positively revel in sticking two fingers up at it all. It is not to berate success which is to be celebrated, it is to berate selfishness. I agree with all of that. I just don't like how people get labelled Tory for not going with the Monentum group think. And for me, collectivism is just as dangerous as individualism can be - the idea that everybody should think the same way because of their race/religion/gender/sexuality etc - and you can't tell me that that isn't a big factor in the current left-wing politics, because it is). The referendum and elections have proved it. But what - in this particular interview - has Noel done/said that's so selfish? Not vote Labour? A party which is so atrocious it has been demolished by the worst, most horrid bunch of Tories in decades - not once, but twice, in three years? For all we know, he could give hundreds of thousands a year to charity, or whatever. We don't know. We know he's always been a big patron of TCT etc. Look at Oasis when they came through - surely Noel with his 'power to the people' stuff was just doing similar to what Stormzy is now? Maybe in 20 years, if Stormzy is as successful then as he is now, his outlook will change too? When he called Ed Miliband a communist (Ed fucking Miliband!) then that’s worrying that even somebody not really that left wing is berated as such. Sounds like the ill informed Daily Mail reader who thinks Blair was a socialist. His main gripe always seems to be the ‘punishing success’ cliche that, well, Tories spin out - it’s always about how it will affect him with no acknowledgement of what needs to done to society as a whole. Everything he argues is geared towards the individual. And I agree collectivism is not the way forward -but Labour hasn’t preached that as that brings up negative connotations of Communism. Nobody is saying we should all be the same - I’m arguing for communitarianism not collectivism. It is basic human connections that builds tolerance and empathy for others and a successful community is a diverse one that has good ratings of well-being and social capital, and good support networks for those in need. It is not uniform and identical like collectivism preaches. And to make sure it’s not just left wing cliches about welfare and all that, the left can also take ownership of traditional ‘Tory’ policy like business (who by the way don’t give a fuck about local business and happily will see big businesses trample over them) - preaching the support for local businesses, co-operatives and such. Just look at the successful Labour co-operatives that were set up years ago as evidence of Labour being pro-business that are healthy for local communities and the local income, particularly in the north of England. Again, that tramples over the idea of Noel thinking Labour punishes success. Then again, if your pally with tossers at The Sun like Noel is, then you’re stupid enough to say the things he does.
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Jan 5, 2020 12:42:06 GMT -5
Keep apologising for him mate. If you thought that manifesto was useless you're not all that different to Noel. I think you wasted your vote, should have voted for the Tories. I voted Labour because I didn't want to vote Tory. I was initially going to vote Yorkshire Party but I was worried the usually safe Labour seat that I'm in (Hemsworth - Red since 1918) might swing. So I went Labour. I'm glad I did because for once my vote actually counted - Hemsworth is still Labour but by a very thin margin. It's a constituency mainly of ex-miners/their families, and a lot of old pit villages etc. The type of attitude you're showing to me there - that kind of attitude of Holier than Thou, Labour can do no wrong, is what half the problem is. That manifesto - while it had a lot going for it - collapsed as soon as it was under any scrutiny. Also, I didn't actually say the manifesto was useless, but I had no faith in any of the useless tossers in the party to deliver on it. But it's easier to blame everyone else. We can't possibly be the problem? Failed to get in over the Tories in the last four elections (I'm aware, very different manifestos for the first two elections)... but must be everyone else. Give me a break. And I don't know what I'm supposedly an apologist? What has Noel done here that he should say sorry for? Buying a massive house? To think people who voted Conservative have essentially supported the poor getting poorer, the homeless staying homeless, children remaining in poverty is in some way holier than thou? Well if that's the case I'm guilty as charged or my memory is good enough to remember the last 10 years. Labour never has been nor is it perfect and I don't think I suggested it was but the choice was clear, it would only take a few minutes on google to see what each party was aiming at. To label the entire party as useless is foolish and simply incorrect as is your assumption that the manifesto collapsed under scrutiny? Was all of it possible? Maybe not, but a good deal of it was achieveble. Most people blame politicians, thats the easy way out rather than taking resposibility for their vote. There isn't anywhere near enough voter responsibility in this country. I don't want Noel to aplogise for anything, maybe just have a think back and realise there are still people struggling to escape the same circumstances that he did, not repeating right wing smears on behalf of a media and Tories that would seek to keep them there.
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Post by matt on Jan 5, 2020 12:48:31 GMT -5
I'm not having a go at yourself or the individualistic mindset, I think that's fine to be aspirational but in a healthy society it needs to be tempered with a communitarian one also and my feeling is he just has none of that, like most of the country. You can be wildly successful but there is a responsibility to recognise and do something about the social ills in the country. To be purely driven by one self is something I've never understood and the obsessions with the self, competition and the general individualistic drive is something that is causing harmful effects. I think the neoliberal obsession of the individual is a major reason for the rapid rise in depression in this country - a country that is ideologically driven as individualistic is one with no networks of social capital and feelings of connection with one another - the feelings of isolation, even amongst materially wealthy people, is insidious over time as people lose a sense of place, a sense of belonging and any sense of meaning. Nobody is immune to it - that's how much of a grip it has on the country. The extremity of this isolation, promoted by neoliberalism, is ill feeling towards others and a lack of empathy causing harm towards other groups. Everything becomes splintered. I think Noel's attitudes sum up these problems with the self. He has no social conscience with what he is saying and his attitude is 'fuck em and leave them all behind, I did it all by myself' is the kind of egotism and selfishness that society celebrates sadly. Footballers seem to get a bad rep but a lot of them came from similar tough backgrounds to Noel, and when they became millionaires, they set up their own charities and social networks/enterprises in the places they grew up in. You see someone like Stormzy also using his position for the betterment of those in a similar positions to where he grew up in. Noel, on the other hand, seems to positively revel in sticking two fingers up at it all. It is not to berate success which is to be celebrated, it is to berate selfishness. And, you know, there's no such thing as society.
Margaret Thatcher, 1987.
Fatastic post of yours, Matt. We kind of just know now that self-obsession has fuelled an epidemic of mental health issues in the 21st century, but I've always just looked at it from the Big Tech-corroding-our-souls angle, when really we should be analysing the core values that underpin our society. And, of course, it's still essentially Thatcher and Reagan's short-termist neoliberalism for most of us. It shouldn't be; those ideas should've been consigned to the history books after the global crash. And I think you're right: while people continue to feel divorced from their societies and their sense of place, we should expect our contemporary international political and spirital crises to worsen.
Haha, that’s the poisonous quote that is always ringing in my head! Of all the decrepit things she said and did, that viewpoint is arguably the most harmful. Its interesting to see that general rates of mental well-being is tumbling in all Western societies. The breakdown of neoliberalism will not be conscious but will be self inflicted through this collective mental breakdown. It is terrifying but rational sane arguments to change it don’t seem to get through to the bigoted people. Another interesting point is that the happiest nation in Europe is Denmark - with a healthy, supportive welfare state but also tight knit healthy communities where people connect at the grassroots. Coincidence? I think not.
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Jan 5, 2020 12:57:54 GMT -5
Money, fame and greed feeds the ego and more often that not flushes out the character of people. A lack of groundedness also leads to a lack of creativity, losing that sixth sense of songwriting and the more spiritual and universal truths that great songwriting provides. It's the caution against a materialist way of living - a bit like the film Local Hero that implicitly suggests this by losing their community and one character dourly claiming 'we're just going to have to get used to being stinking rich'. I think you can be rich and famous and still have a social conscience towards the people and places you were once intertwined with but its rare to see. But I doubt Noel has that - once he became rich and famous, the references to the kind of places he came from is non-existant, likewise with Morrissey. It's no surprise he makes such cold and detached viewpoints. I don't care what his views on Corbyn are as I don't care for Corbyn myself, I'll go to more informed thinkers for a critique on him but Noel doesn't even offer his vision and what things should be like, and there's no lambasting of the Conservative policies that will further destroy the environment he came from. He might correctly say that he got out of his situation by himself in spite of his community (so the perfect individualist Conservative take) but the community also informed his character and what he wrote songs about. It's fine to leave the places you once lived in behind but to outright abandon it without any further thought or consideration is pretty callous and leaves an individual without any moral and political foundation. It ends up resulting in poorly informed political opinions like Noel. But how has he abandoned the place in anyway more than anyone else has? That's my view. And like you, I don't go to Noel Gallagher for my political opinions. He's said himself he didn't vote. That's up to him. It's his choice. I don't agree with it, but it's not an evil thing. I have a very individualist outlook on life too. I probably have got that attitude from Oasis - and it's why I love the band so much. They've done so much more for me than just get me into music. They've taught me that if you want to go and achieve something then you have to do it yourself. Not rely on others on the way.It doesn't mean I'm bitter or calous or don't care about others. It's just a way of thinking of how you want to get somewhere. And there's other ways to do it too, I'm sure. Its so weird to me that of everything, that's what you take from Oasis. Oasis were about community, inclusivity and communal hope at a time when all that was lacking. Noel doesn't seem to see the similarities between then and now
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Jan 5, 2020 14:09:21 GMT -5
But how has he abandoned the place in anyway more than anyone else has? That's my view. And like you, I don't go to Noel Gallagher for my political opinions. He's said himself he didn't vote. That's up to him. It's his choice. I don't agree with it, but it's not an evil thing. I have a very individualist outlook on life too. I probably have got that attitude from Oasis - and it's why I love the band so much. They've done so much more for me than just get me into music. They've taught me that if you want to go and achieve something then you have to do it yourself. Not rely on others on the way.It doesn't mean I'm bitter or calous or don't care about others. It's just a way of thinking of how you want to get somewhere. And there's other ways to do it too, I'm sure. Its so weird to me that of everything, that's what you take from Oasis. Oasis were about community, inclusivity and communal hope at a time when all that was lacking. Noel doesn't seem to see the similarities between then and now Because we need each other, We believe in one other. And I know we’re gonna uncover What’s sleeping our soul.
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Post by bt95 on Jan 5, 2020 15:18:19 GMT -5
Yeah, that’s really going to fucking help... I'm sure he's just trying to wind me up and honestly I take it as a joke. I know I'm not a Tory. Tbh, if people are, it doesn't really bother me. They're not all bad people. I voted Labour. I'm glad I did. The Labour MP for my constituency is a decent guy from what I know and has always fought for what his constituents voted for. I liked a lot of the manifesto. When they started saying stuff like 'free broadband' though, even though I absolutely agree that by 2030 a developed nation with one of the largest economies in the world should be able to provide free broadbrand, it'd have been nice if the politicians leading the campaign had been able to provide another way to fund it than just 'tax billionaires'. That's my issue with Momentum/the latest Labour party. And unfortunately it took them getting absolutely blitzed in an election for them to realise it. It's all well and good having a great manifesto, but if you can't back it up, and if the people in the party aren't trustworthy enough in the eyes of the electorate to be able to deliver on it (and of course, Labour's muddled stance on Brexit played a huge part in that), then I'm sorry, but you can't just go blaming everyone else (I know this isn't what you're doing). Anyway, my original point was when I read the interview back in December or whenever it was, I really didn't think there was anything outrageous too it. Noel's been a multimillionaire for half of his life. I have no idea what his life is like now, other than to say it will be definitely nothing like how he grew up. And the man has professed many, many times that he left that behind as soon as he and Liam and his mum and brother left their dad.
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