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Post by matt on Sept 7, 2014 17:53:16 GMT -5
Big big decision for all us Scots on here - are you for or against independence from the UK? My polling card has already arrived, and my answer is....... NO.
I can't take the risk unfortunately and much of this plan has been poorly thought out. As much as I detest Westminster and all it's negligence towards Scotland, I don't want a nationalist government ruling over us with Alex Salmond. Can't stand the man or his party - nationalism breeds intolerance in my view, whether it's Scottish, British, American, German, etc.
Whatever the case, I'm all for a federal Britain and I do sympathise and understand why people want independence. This should be the kick up the arse that Westminster needs - and if it does happen to be a 'Yes', then Westminster only has itself to blame.
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Post by Let It Bleed on Sept 7, 2014 18:09:00 GMT -5
i only as of about a year ago discovered which countries make up the U.K, and only learnt that after manicsfan scolded me for not knowing. but to be fair to myself, i've asked numerous other americans - those that are educated with universities degrees and others who have actually visited the U.K. and none of them knew which countries make up the U.K. i'm guessing 8 out of 10 americans don't know the answer and maybe even 9 out of 10 don't know. and to further the American ignorance, didn't Scotland win their freedom hundreds of years ago, like what the movie Braveheart is based on? God bless.
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Post by matt on Sept 7, 2014 21:05:43 GMT -5
i only as of about a year ago discovered which countries make up the U.K, and only learnt that after manicsfan scolded me for not knowing. but to be fair to myself, i've asked numerous other americans - those that are educated with universities degrees and others who have actually visited the U.K. and none of them knew which countries make up the U.K. i'm guessing 8 out of 10 americans don't know the answer and maybe even 9 out of 10 don't know. and to further the American ignorance, didn't Scotland win their freedom hundreds of years ago, like what the movie Braveheart is based on? God bless. Many Americans simply call the whole of the UK as 'England'. To call the whole of the UK as 'England' is very insulting to Scots, as England is only a part of the UK! I've always wondered, what do some Americans think Scotland actually is? Braveheart covers the Scottish Wars of Independence, but is largely historically inaccurate with Hollywood style gloss interfering. But yeah, timeline is about right, Scotland got independence in 1320 in the Declaration of Arbroath until 1707. Basically because of the Darien Scheme in the Caribbean we had to give up independence. It was a ploy for Scotland to begin its own empire by trading food (think it was food..), in reply to the advancing English empire, but to say it went tits up is an understatement. Scotland went bankrupt and asked for a bailout from England, therefore uniting the two countries, resulting in the British Empire when Scotland's nous and industrialisation was put to use. Might only be 2 weeks left of a United Kingdom - if a Yes vote for independence occurs, the UK will cease to exist and could be the biggest shockwave to occur in the entire country for hundreds of years.
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Post by manic on Sept 8, 2014 0:48:08 GMT -5
Big big decision for all us Scots on here - are you for or against independence from the UK? My polling card has already arrived, and my answer is....... NO. I can't take the risk unfortunately and much of this plan has been poorly thought out. As much as I detest Westminster and all it's negligence towards Scotland, I don't want a nationalist government ruling over us with Alex Salmond. Can't stand the man or his party - nationalism breeds intolerance in my view, whether it's Scottish, British, American, German, etc. Whatever the case, I'm all for a federal Britain and I do sympathise and understand why people want independence. This should be the kick up the arse that Westminster needs - and if it does happen to be a 'Yes', then Westminster only has itself to blame. This is one of the main points of independence, if we don't want someone in power then we can simply vote them out. Also, almost every comment I have seen that could be interpreted as intolerant has been from the Better Together campaign, with countless representatives giving it the "I don't want my Scottish family to be foreign after the 18th" what exactly is wrong with "foreign" people? And to say you fear nationalism, you do realise that by voting No and supporting the current Westminster system, you are almost certainly submitting to a UKIP/Tory coalition after the next UK general election. 2 parties who have time and again spoke out against the EU and in UKIP's case blaming immigration and "foreigners" for the current period of austerity, this is surely more worrying than a nation of people wishing to run their own affairs?
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Post by globe on Sept 8, 2014 1:50:21 GMT -5
I'm voting Yes. Not because I am some raving Scottish nationalist who hates England. I'm voting yes because Westminster is a busted flush. I want to see a new politics in Scotland away from all the shite that goes on in Westminster. I also don't want to be part of a country that is governed by UKIP.
The No campaign has been a total joke - negative, scare-mongering and full of lies. Well, those chickens are coming home to roost, watching Osbourne on the Marr show yesterday was hilarious as he scrambled around trying to come up with some half-baked ideas for more powers for Holyrood.
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Post by globe on Sept 8, 2014 1:52:13 GMT -5
P.S. see my signature
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Post by Let It Bleed on Sept 8, 2014 6:10:18 GMT -5
i only as of about a year ago discovered which countries make up the U.K, and only learnt that after manicsfan scolded me for not knowing. but to be fair to myself, i've asked numerous other americans - those that are educated with universities degrees and others who have actually visited the U.K. and none of them knew which countries make up the U.K. i'm guessing 8 out of 10 americans don't know the answer and maybe even 9 out of 10 don't know. and to further the American ignorance, didn't Scotland win their freedom hundreds of years ago, like what the movie Braveheart is based on? God bless. Many Americans simply call the whole of the UK as 'England'. To call the whole of the UK as 'England' is very insulting to Scots, as England is only a part of the UK! I've always wondered, what do some Americans think Scotland actually is? Braveheart covers the Scottish Wars of Independence, but is largely historically inaccurate with Hollywood style gloss interfering. But yeah, timeline is about right, Scotland got independence in 1320 in the Declaration of Arbroath until 1707. Basically because of the Darien Scheme in the Caribbean we had to give up independence. It was a ploy for Scotland to begin its own empire by trading food (think it was food..), in reply to the advancing English empire, but to say it went tits up is an understatement. Scotland went bankrupt and asked for a bailout from England, therefore uniting the two countries, resulting in the British Empire when Scotland's nous and industrialisation was put to use. Might only be 2 weeks left of a United Kingdom - if a Yes vote for independence occurs, the UK will cease to exist and could be the biggest shockwave to occur in the entire country for hundreds of years. Americans are very aware of Scotland as a country, especially with its unique culture. but like i said, most americans aren't aware of what countries make up the U.K. God bless.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Sept 8, 2014 6:40:23 GMT -5
Massive mistake on their behalf. They are going to flounder.
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Post by globe on Sept 8, 2014 6:44:36 GMT -5
Massive mistake on their behalf. They are going to flounder. You hopefully still have me on ignore, but I'm willing to bet that as usual you know fuck all about this debate however think you know it all. Please just shut up. For ever.
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Post by Elie De Beaufour on Sept 8, 2014 7:20:01 GMT -5
Massive mistake on their behalf. They are going to flounder.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 7:34:21 GMT -5
I'm all for a federal Britain This is what i would like.
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Post by globe on Sept 8, 2014 7:59:40 GMT -5
I'm all for a federal Britain This is what i would like. Come and live in the new federal Scotland Ross, you will be more than welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 8:18:51 GMT -5
I hope if Scotland goes independent that a referendum will be held on the monarchy and EU membership as i think Scots should get the independence they want not simply the SNP's version of it.
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Post by globe on Sept 8, 2014 8:21:32 GMT -5
I hope if Scotland goes independent that a referendum will be held on the monarchy and EU membership as i think Scots should get the independence they want not simply the SNP's version of it. The SNP will probably disband after a Yes vote. The plan for the moment is to keep the monarchy just like Australia and Canada, however I'm sure a few years down the line there will be an adult debate about that lot too.
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Post by matt on Sept 8, 2014 10:34:41 GMT -5
I hope if Scotland goes independent that a referendum will be held on the monarchy and EU membership as i think Scots should get the independence they want not simply the SNP's version of it. This all day long. I get what you're saying manic, and I totally agree with your sentiments. But the Scottish constitution will be written up by the SNP, hence my fears of a nationalist rhetoric dominating such vital proceedings. Whatever happens, I do believe we are heading towards a federal Britain, Scots just aren't tolerating Westminster anymore (for good reason as Westminster only cares about the financial services in London) so gaining much more powers (and it has to be a lot) is the only way forward for Westminster. If these are denied, then a slight majority in favour of independence will become significant. Federalism is the natural way to go for me. If that works very well, then by all means go on to the next step of independence and I'll be all for it, but at the moment, its too big a leap for me. I don't even listen to Better Together because it's all guff that we can succesfully 'work together' which is rubbish - Westminster hasn't even been working with the rest of England, leaving the North of England pretty much desolate. In fact, the North of England has more in common with Scotland than the prosperous South. Ideally, a devolved parliament situated in somewhere like Manchester could deal with the North of England, just like a devolved parliament with further powers in Scotland.
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Post by NYR on Sept 12, 2014 18:06:08 GMT -5
I'm not sure what the consequences of a yes vote would be, economically, politically and otherwise. That said, as an American, I can't help but support Scottish independence.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 21:10:53 GMT -5
Many Americans simply call the whole of the UK as 'England'. To call the whole of the UK as 'England' is very insulting to Scots, as England is only a part of the UK! I've always wondered, what do some Americans think Scotland actually is? Braveheart covers the Scottish Wars of Independence, but is largely historically inaccurate with Hollywood style gloss interfering. But yeah, timeline is about right, Scotland got independence in 1320 in the Declaration of Arbroath until 1707. Basically because of the Darien Scheme in the Caribbean we had to give up independence. It was a ploy for Scotland to begin its own empire by trading food (think it was food..), in reply to the advancing English empire, but to say it went tits up is an understatement. Scotland went bankrupt and asked for a bailout from England, therefore uniting the two countries, resulting in the British Empire when Scotland's nous and industrialisation was put to use. Might only be 2 weeks left of a United Kingdom - if a Yes vote for independence occurs, the UK will cease to exist and could be the biggest shockwave to occur in the entire country for hundreds of years. Americans are very aware of Scotland as a country, especially with its unique culture. but like i said, most americans aren't aware of what countries make up the U.K. God bless. Most of my friends here in Florida think the UK is England .... Makes me nuts
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Post by thomaslivesforever on Sept 14, 2014 4:23:47 GMT -5
I hope if Scotland goes independent that a referendum will be held on the monarchy and EU membership as i think Scots should get the independence they want not simply the SNP's version of it. The EU one I agree with. I don't get the monarchy one, they are nothing more than a shared reminded of our history.
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Post by Bellboy on Sept 14, 2014 4:40:16 GMT -5
Ok I was waiting for a thread on this & have waited to comment. I'm Scottish and live in the capital of Scotland & I can tell you 1st hand the divide this is causing is unbelievable! The PR for both Yes & No camps is at a level never experienced before! It is everywhere. It has made people debate and talk about politics and the future more than ever before. Which is a good and a bad thing. Where I live every second house seems to have the word "Yes" in the window and there is overwhelming support for independence from the general public. It will be a very close call.
So close infact that the big 3 parties where shitting themselves last week with a big "Better Together" push. They know how close it is & imo didn't take it seriously enough before. David Cameron even flew the St Andrews Cross outside Downing Street which I just felt was all a bit patronising & desperate.
I personally think it should be a majority vote rule where it has to be at least 70% in favour, as it stands it's looking 50/50. This will only cause future devide within Scotland and isnt the fairest way to make a decision. It could end up a No vote for example 52-48!
I can see pros and cons to both sides but personally I am STILL an undecided voter. I will vote though, this is very important decision. Plus all politicians are liars anyway.
Pros- Scotland can be self suffucent with tourism, Whisky, fishing and of course Oil! (Of which there is lots!) - Having FULL control. Actually being able to decide the outcome of our own future & get the parties we vote for and not the South of Englands choice! (Did you know there is more people live in London than the whole of Scotland!) - Can it actually be any worse?! We already have a Parlament which we can easily transfer fiscal powers to - Getting rid of god Save The Queen & The Tories! - Our Freedom!!
Cons - Uncertinty of pretty much every future outcome!.... The Army, our pensions, currencey, passports, jobs, EU membership and the NHS. - Having Salmond in charge - Loss of jobs and increase in income tax & NI - It all going tits up 10 years time and either joining the Euro or, even worse going back to England & saying sorry bout that!
Will it really be the end of the Union Jack flag? Will going to a gig in Manchester for me mean being in a different country in the future? We will see in 6 days time!
As Billy Connolly said (who is not voting at all) whatever happens "Scotland will get what it deserves"
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Post by Bellboy on Sept 14, 2014 4:46:07 GMT -5
Here is Glasgow comedian Limmy with a more confused view haha (Sorry my American friends. No subtitles!)
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Post by Bellboy on Sept 14, 2014 4:50:04 GMT -5
Also a view from the outspoken Russell Brand about the debate. A bit of education here but He talks some truth here imo
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Post by globe on Sept 14, 2014 11:48:36 GMT -5
Ok I was waiting for a thread on this & have waited to comment. I'm Scottish and live in the capital of Scotland & I can tell you 1st hand the divide this is causing is unbelievable! The PR for both Yes & No camps is at a level never experienced before! It is everywhere. It has made people debate and talk about politics and the future more than ever before. Which is a good and a bad thing. Where I live every second house seems to have the word "Yes" in the window and there is overwhelming support for independence from the general public. It will be a very close call. So close infact that the big 3 parties where shitting themselves last week with a big "Better Together" push. They know how close it is & imo didn't take it seriously enough before. David Cameron even flew the St Andrews Cross outside Downing Street which I just felt was all a bit patronising & desperate. I personally think it should be a majority vote rule where it has to be at least 70% in favour, as it stands it's looking 50/50. This will only cause future devide within Scotland and isnt the fairest way to make a decision. It could end up a No vote for example 52-48! I can see pros and cons to both sides but personally I am STILL an undecided voter. I will vote though, this is very important decision. Plus all politicians are liars anyway. Pros- Scotland can be self suffucent with tourism, Whisky, fishing and of course Oil! (Of which there is lots!) - Having FULL control. Actually being able to decide the outcome of our own future & get the parties we vote for and not the South of Englands choice! (Did you know there is more people live in London than the whole of Scotland!) - Can it actually be any worse?! We already have a Parlament which we can easily transfer fiscal powers to - Getting rid of god Save The Queen & The Tories! - Our Freedom!! Cons - Uncertinty of pretty much every future outcome!.... The Army, our pensions, currencey, passports, jobs, EU membership and the NHS. - Having Salmond in charge - Loss of jobs and increase in income tax & NI - It all going tits up 10 years time and either joining the Euro or, even worse going back to England & saying sorry bout that! Will it really be the end of the Union Jack flag? Will going to a gig in Manchester for me mean being in a different country in the future? We will see in 6 days time! As Billy Connolly said (who is not voting at all) whatever happens "Scotland will get what it deserves" Salmond won't be in charge after a Yes vote mate. Here is what I think would happen. Come the time of the next Holyrood elections, the SNP will disband, a new party will evolve, I think called something like Social Democrats. This new party will be made up of current MSPs from all parties, mainly SNP, Liberal, The Greens and a few defectors from Labour and the Tory's. This is a chance for a fresh start away from all the corruption, "couldn't-care-lessness" and smugness of Westminster. Grab it with both hands.
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Post by matt on Sept 14, 2014 12:54:20 GMT -5
It's getting pretty heated now, really feeling the tension now.
People say its been good for politics, but I don't know. All we get is everyone regurgitating the slogans from the Yes campaign and Better Together, without any substance to the quotes. Most annoying is Better Together, because it's clear we're not if Westminster continue with their neglectful attitude towards Scotland.
If it goes badly wrong, we can't ask to rejoin the Union. Some are ignorant in thinking that, but gaining independence will take a hell of a lot of work and negotiation to get it while trying to get back in will be even more complicated. Besides, the rest of the UK will think 'you've made your bed, now lie in it'. And I can't blame them.
Besides, all the economic arguments just don't add up - we'll join the pound - yet Bank of England set the monetary policies, and that means we'll have to continue with austerity anyway. Or we'll get the Euro - but since we'll be a new state, we won't be in the EU and we'll have to join a queue for that in addition to strict beuracratic measures that the EU make new countries comply with. In addition to that, joining the Euro anyway will mean we will have to sustain austerity policies in compliance with the EU because of the Eurozone crisis. The argument's flimsly, and seems as if Salmond wrote up the idea on the back of a cigarette pack when having a shit.
The IMF, EU, major countries say independence doesn't add up - and I agree with them, because it's based on that twunt Alex Salmond and the rest of his cronies who are no worse than the Westminster counterparts spouting unsubstantiated bullshit.
It's clear this idea of 'independence' isn't about social justice - that's just a smokescreen to fool people into voting Yes - but downright shoddy nationalism. A tyrant will always a pretext for his tyranny. The SNP is built on nationalism and has always wanted independence regardless of social justice, even demanding it when it least made sense. The SNP refused to see World War II as a war against Britain, but simply a war against England - Scotland had nothing to do with it. Note - England's war, NOT Westminster's.
After all, Hugh McDiarmud claimed he'd rather have the Nazi's occupying us than Winston Churchill - this is the kind of irrationality the SNP is based upon, and although McDiarmud is long gone, independence is still a goal even when it's not even the most convenient argument.
It's totally irrational. Only devolution max makes sense, but the nationalists have hijacked this campaign and instead of a more beneficial federal system, we might very well jump the gun simple because it achieves the long held ambition of the SNP. Social justice has nothing to do with it. If you have an idea based on flimsy foundations, then it is bound to fail spectaculraly.
And being based on such shoddy arguments makes me a no voter. I wish we had the federal 'devo max' option, and sure as hell, if it's a No vote, then the majority of Scots will favour this. Devo Max would provide the social justice without the uncertainties independence would.
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Post by globe on Sept 15, 2014 2:41:20 GMT -5
Sorry Matt, but there is so much in there that I completely disagree with, particularly your points about nationalism. This isn't about nationalism, as I said in my original point in this thread, I've never been a nationalist and never will be. I'm voting YES as I simply want Scotland to take care of it's own affairs, I couldn't care less about flags, and passports, these things are trivial in the grand scheme of things.
One thing for certain though - regardless of the result on Thursday, the Labour Party are finished in Scotland.
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Post by matt on Sept 15, 2014 12:23:05 GMT -5
Sorry Matt, but there is so much in there that I completely disagree with, particularly your points about nationalism. This isn't about nationalism, as I said in my original point in this thread, I've never been a nationalist and never will be. I'm voting YES as I simply want Scotland to take care of it's own affairs, I couldn't care less about flags, and passports, these things are trivial in the grand scheme of things. One thing for certain though - regardless of the result on Thursday, the Labour Party are finished in Scotland. Don't think you're a nationalist globe, nor are a majority of Yes supporters. I totally sympathise with everything that has been said - and I agree with it (but I don't think independence is the solution), but the SNP are heading this campaign, and what's said about social justice from the nationalists is just a smokescreen for their own motives.
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