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Post by halftheworld on Mar 28, 2010 18:52:54 GMT -5
So lets say that 10% of our population does not have health insurance. You are telling me that the majority of them are the ones who "really need it"? ehm, no i am not. the question is: if only one percent of these people really need health care. what can politics do to secure this. dude, here is the truth: there will always be some people who will profit from this though they don' deserve it. moral hazard exits everywere!
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Post by NYR on Mar 28, 2010 19:08:15 GMT -5
So lets say that 10% of our population does not have health insurance. You are telling me that the majority of them are the ones who "really need it"? ehm, no i am not. the question is: if only one percent of these people really need health care. what can politics do to secure this. dude, here is the truth: there will always be some people who will profit from this though they don' deserve it. moral hazard exits everywere! you'll get that in any system, from governmental healthcare to the "take a penny leave a penny" in the shop around the corner. there's always a number of people willing to take advantage. that's just how it goes, but a few bad apples shouldn't ruin the entire bunch.
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Post by caro on Mar 28, 2010 20:46:40 GMT -5
National healthcare is a nice concept but it is to be classified with all the utopias unfortunately...
Coming from a country that has had it for a few decades I can tell it is not viable. France is a lot smaller than the US and it is imploding... Scary to think what it could become in the US. FACTS are that National Healtcare is SO indebted that the solution they found is to stop covering a lot of medications and health services AND increasing the health taxes taken directly on your paycheck... The system is feeding tons of government people doing nothing or almost, it is also feeding dishonest doctors and health practionners as well as all the people who migrate to France because we're dumb enough to give anything for free. They have schemes you can't even start to fathom and it costs billions and billions.... And now it is coming to the USA, let's rejoice!
Consequences on small businesses (which employ a vast majority of workers) will be horrible, they will freeze hiring and the downward spiral goes on and on...
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Post by globe on Mar 29, 2010 3:04:17 GMT -5
A disaster? A system that treats anybody, anytime no matter how much money you have in the bank with some of the best facilities and doctors in the world? Oh aye, that's a real disaster. It's a fucking brilliant system that's came to the aid of many of my family and friends over the years. I wouldn't go as far as to call it a disaster, but it is going to cost a shitload of money that we do not have. Yeah its a great concept in theory, but it still needs to be paid for. Our Social Security System is going bankrupt and we are trillions of dollars in debt but we can spend a trillion dollars+ more on this...Yeah makes sense. Some people work as little as possible to get by in life, and this is their choice. If they don't have healthcare, and I have to pay for them...Well that bothers me. Also I don't feel that it is fair if I have to pay for a liver transplant for a 38 old alcoholic that is destroying his own body, a drug abuser, or the guy who eats hamburgers everyday, and needs a triple bypass before he turns 40. I can only speak from a Brit's point of view here, I know that most Americans have a completley different outlook on life that us, I'm just not very comfortable with big business making money out of people's health. Of course you make very valid points, but the majority of people don't just sit on their backsides all day and do feck all, the majority of people are hard working and to stop something like the NHS just because of a minority of people like that would be a real shame. If I think about my mother for example - she has worked all her life, paid a shit load of taxes and now that she is getting older, she will probably have to rely on the NHS a bit more, but she's paid her dues so she will get the best treatment available. It's not perfect, but it's a bloody great system overall. Thing is about the cost of it all, your economy is fucked because of mismanagment by the previous regime (just like ours), yet people were happy for them to waste trilions fo dollars on pointless wars on the other side of the world, yet the new administration want to spend money helping people in your own country and there is uproar about it. I will never understand that myself.
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Post by halftheworld on Mar 29, 2010 3:58:58 GMT -5
National healthcare is a nice concept but it is to be classified with all the utopias unfortunately... Coming from a country that has had it for a few decades I can tell it is not viable. France is a lot smaller than the US and it is imploding... Scary to think what it could become in the US. FACTS are that National Healtcare is SO indebted that the solution they found is to stop covering a lot of medications and health services AND increasing the health taxes taken directly on your paycheck... The system is feeding tons of government people doing nothing or almost, it is also feeding dishonest doctors and health practionners as well as all the people who migrate to France because we're dumb enough to give anything for free. They have schemes you can't even start to fathom and it costs billions and billions.... And now it is coming to the USA, let's rejoice! Consequences on small businesses (which employ a vast majority of workers) will be horrible, they will freeze hiring and the downward spiral goes on and on... coming from a country with a national health care system, too, i can tell you that over here it is not really like that. yes it costs a lot of money, yes there is abuse. but we're not bancrupt, the economy is in a relatively strong condition and people more or less live a pretty comfortable life. in principal, a national health care system isn't utopia at all. but a system for health insurances that totally satisfies everybody is! a national health care system like obamas is just another spot on a broad spectrum. and the system that exists today, or 2 weeks ago, isn't really better.
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Post by lionsden® on Mar 29, 2010 9:46:21 GMT -5
So lets say that 10% of our population does not have health insurance. You are telling me that the majority of them are the ones who "really need it"? ehm, no i am not. the question is: if only one percent of these people really need health care. what can politics do to secure this. dude, here is the truth: there will always be some people who will profit from this though they don' deserve it. moral hazard exits everywere! I do not have any moral issues. I employ 20 people, and each one gets great health insurance. It costs our company about $6,000 per year for each employee, and nothing out of their pockets. That is our choice of how we run our business. We have also managed to get through this recession so far. Under Obamacare we would be forced to provide health insurance, or else pay a penalty. Is that right? Why should the government tell me how to run my business? We provide right now, but what if something happened down the road where we were forced to either make the decision to provide the insurance, or let people go? Now you have people that have health care...woohoo!...but do not have a job. Globe...I understand the situation with parents growing old. I have a father in poor health. Thing is here once you turn 65 the government already provides healthcare. It called Medicare. And I guess you also had to bring up the previous regime and its expenditures. We were all happy? I don't think so. I am not going to get into a discussion about the wars, but fact is Obama is still in Afghanistan spending money. We also have a stimulus bill that was passed that is spending trillions, and our Social Security system is bankrupt. I have paid in probably close to $80,000 for Social Security. Leave my fucking money alone! The simple fact is we can't afford this.
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Post by globe on Mar 29, 2010 11:14:39 GMT -5
ehm, no i am not. the question is: if only one percent of these people really need health care. what can politics do to secure this. dude, here is the truth: there will always be some people who will profit from this though they don' deserve it. moral hazard exits everywere! I do not have any moral issues. I employ 20 people, and each one gets great health insurance. It costs our company about $6,000 per year for each employee, and nothing out of their pockets. That is our choice of how we run our business. We have also managed to get through this recession so far. Under Obamacare we would be forced to provide health insurance, or else pay a penalty. Is that right? Why should the government tell me how to run my business? We provide right now, but what if something happened down the road where we were forced to either make the decision to provide the insurance, or let people go? Now you have people that have health care...woohoo!...but do not have a job. Globe...I understand the situation with parents growing old. I have a father in poor health. Thing is here once you turn 65 the government already provides healthcare. It called Medicare. And I guess you also had to bring up the previous regime and its expenditures. We were all happy? I don't think so. I am not going to get into a discussion about the wars, but fact is Obama is still in Afghanistan spending money. We also have a stimulus bill that was passed that is spending trillions, and our Social Security system is bankrupt. I have paid in probably close to $80,000 for Social Security. Leave my fucking money alone! The simple fact is we can't afford this. Fair enough man, I can see where you are coming from. It's obvious that the system that is going to happen over there is going to be funded completley differently to the way the NHS is funded, I only got involved in this thread because N4LE was talking complete gash as usual. Like I say, it's a completley different culture in America to here so trying to compare the two countries is like comparing apples with oranges although that didn't stop vaginaybaws from doing it.
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Post by bwilder on Mar 29, 2010 20:53:23 GMT -5
1% of the population owns 99% of the wealth. That might be part of the problem...
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Post by bwilder on Mar 29, 2010 21:12:13 GMT -5
I do not have any moral issues. I employ 20 people, and each one gets great health insurance. It costs our company about $6,000 per year for each employee, and nothing out of their pockets. That is our choice of how we run our business. We have also managed to get through this recession so far. Under Obamacare we would be forced to provide health insurance, or else pay a penalty. Is that right? Why should the government tell me how to run my business? We provide right now, but what if something happened down the road where we were forced to either make the decision to provide the insurance, or let people go? Now you have people that have health care...woohoo!...but do not have a job. Globe...I understand the situation with parents growing old. I have a father in poor health. Thing is here once you turn 65 the government already provides healthcare. It called Medicare. And I guess you also had to bring up the previous regime and its expenditures. We were all happy? I don't think so. I am not going to get into a discussion about the wars, but fact is Obama is still in Afghanistan spending money. We also have a stimulus bill that was passed that is spending trillions, and our Social Security system is bankrupt. I have paid in probably close to $80,000 for Social Security. Leave my fucking money alone! The simple fact is we can't afford this. lionsden, if you're paying your employees health insurance now, what difference does it make if the government mandates it or not? That's like saying, "I've never gotten a speeding ticket and will never speed so we don't need police enforcing speeding laws." What's a government's job, if not to protect people from getting fucked over? Just because you're playing fair, doesn't mean other businesses are.
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Post by Moorish on Mar 30, 2010 11:25:08 GMT -5
I can only speak from a Brit's point of view here, I know that most Americans have a completley different outlook on life that us, I'm just not very comfortable with big business making money out of people's health. Of course you make very valid points, but the majority of people don't just sit on their backsides all day and do feck all, the majority of people are hard working and to stop something like the NHS just because of a minority of people like that would be a real shame. If I think about my mother for example - she has worked all her life, paid a shit load of taxes and now that she is getting older, she will probably have to rely on the NHS a bit more, but she's paid her dues so she will get the best treatment available. It's not perfect, but it's a bloody great system overall. Thing is about the cost of it all, your economy is fucked because of mismanagment by the previous regime (just like ours), yet people were happy for them to waste trilions fo dollars on pointless wars on the other side of the world, yet the new administration want to spend money helping people in your own country and there is uproar about it. I will never understand that myself. Well said, Globe.
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Post by bwilder on Mar 30, 2010 12:22:42 GMT -5
I can only speak from a Brit's point of view here, I know that most Americans have a completley different outlook on life that us, I'm just not very comfortable with big business making money out of people's health. Of course you make very valid points, but the majority of people don't just sit on their backsides all day and do feck all, the majority of people are hard working and to stop something like the NHS just because of a minority of people like that would be a real shame. If I think about my mother for example - she has worked all her life, paid a shit load of taxes and now that she is getting older, she will probably have to rely on the NHS a bit more, but she's paid her dues so she will get the best treatment available. It's not perfect, but it's a bloody great system overall. Thing is about the cost of it all, your economy is fucked because of mismanagment by the previous regime (just like ours), yet people were happy for them to waste trilions fo dollars on pointless wars on the other side of the world, yet the new administration want to spend money helping people in your own country and there is uproar about it. I will never understand that myself. Well said, Globe. Fuckin' A, Globe. A firm handshake from Boston!
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Post by lionsden® on Mar 30, 2010 13:27:53 GMT -5
I do not have any moral issues. I employ 20 people, and each one gets great health insurance. It costs our company about $6,000 per year for each employee, and nothing out of their pockets. That is our choice of how we run our business. We have also managed to get through this recession so far. Under Obamacare we would be forced to provide health insurance, or else pay a penalty. Is that right? Why should the government tell me how to run my business? We provide right now, but what if something happened down the road where we were forced to either make the decision to provide the insurance, or let people go? Now you have people that have health care...woohoo!...but do not have a job. Globe...I understand the situation with parents growing old. I have a father in poor health. Thing is here once you turn 65 the government already provides healthcare. It called Medicare. And I guess you also had to bring up the previous regime and its expenditures. We were all happy? I don't think so. I am not going to get into a discussion about the wars, but fact is Obama is still in Afghanistan spending money. We also have a stimulus bill that was passed that is spending trillions, and our Social Security system is bankrupt. I have paid in probably close to $80,000 for Social Security. Leave my fucking money alone! The simple fact is we can't afford this. lionsden, if you're paying your employees health insurance now, what difference does it make if the government mandates it or not? That's like saying, "I've never gotten a speeding ticket and will never speed so we don't need police enforcing speeding laws." What's a government's job, if not to protect people from getting fucked over? Just because you're playing fair, doesn't mean other businesses are. Why would businesses not be playing fair? Because they do not pay for their employee's health insurance benefits? Maybe some small businesses can't afford it? I don't see why the government should intervene and tell a business that they have to provide this. Businesses that provide benefits have the choice to provide them or not. Its not required to pay for health insurance premiums or 401K match. We do it because it helps us retain good employees. They have great benefits, and if they ever thought about moving on to work somewhere else they would have to consider what we offer them. As far as your comment about what the difference is if I am paying for the benefits now, and will continue if the government mandates it...Maybe you didn't read my post close enough. I said that what if something was to happen to our company that put us in a spot where we could not afford the pay the full health benefits? Then what? At that point there may need to be a choice made to have to lay off employees in order to pay for the benefits.
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Post by lionsden® on Mar 30, 2010 13:30:46 GMT -5
I do not have any moral issues. I employ 20 people, and each one gets great health insurance. It costs our company about $6,000 per year for each employee, and nothing out of their pockets. That is our choice of how we run our business. We have also managed to get through this recession so far. Under Obamacare we would be forced to provide health insurance, or else pay a penalty. Is that right? Why should the government tell me how to run my business? We provide right now, but what if something happened down the road where we were forced to either make the decision to provide the insurance, or let people go? Now you have people that have health care...woohoo!...but do not have a job. Globe...I understand the situation with parents growing old. I have a father in poor health. Thing is here once you turn 65 the government already provides healthcare. It called Medicare. And I guess you also had to bring up the previous regime and its expenditures. We were all happy? I don't think so. I am not going to get into a discussion about the wars, but fact is Obama is still in Afghanistan spending money. We also have a stimulus bill that was passed that is spending trillions, and our Social Security system is bankrupt. I have paid in probably close to $80,000 for Social Security. Leave my fucking money alone! The simple fact is we can't afford this. Fair enough man, I can see where you are coming from. It's obvious that the system that is going to happen over there is going to be funded completley differently to the way the NHS is funded, I only got involved in this thread because N4LE was talking complete gash as usual. Like I say, it's a completley different culture in America to here so trying to compare the two countries is like comparing apples with oranges although that didn't stop vaginaybaws from doing it. No worries. vaginaybaws probably just copies and pastes articles from Bill O'Reilley or Sean Hannity's websites anyways. What I am saying is based on knowledge of being a small busniess owner, and what some of the consequences of this bill are, and how it may effect me.
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Post by bwilder on Mar 30, 2010 19:53:47 GMT -5
I do not have any moral issues. I employ 20 people, and each one gets great health insurance. It costs our company about $6,000 per year for each employee, and nothing out of their pockets. That is our choice of how we run our business. We have also managed to get through this recession so far. Under Obamacare we would be forced to provide health insurance, or else pay a penalty. Is that right? Why should the government tell me how to run my business? We provide right now, but what if something happened down the road where we were forced to either make the decision to provide the insurance, or let people go? Now you have people that have health care...woohoo!...but do not have a job. Globe...I understand the situation with parents growing old. I have a father in poor health. Thing is here once you turn 65 the government already provides healthcare. It called Medicare. And I guess you also had to bring up the previous regime and its expenditures. We were all happy? I don't think so. I am not going to get into a discussion about the wars, but fact is Obama is still in Afghanistan spending money. We also have a stimulus bill that was passed that is spending trillions, and our Social Security system is bankrupt. I have paid in probably close to $80,000 for Social Security. Leave my fucking money alone! The simple fact is we can't afford this. lionsden, if you're paying your employees health insurance now, what difference does it make if the government mandates it or not? That's like saying, "I've never gotten a speeding ticket and will never speed so we don't need police enforcing speeding laws." What's a government's job, if not to protect people from getting fucked over? Just because you're playing fair, doesn't mean other businesses are. Why would businesses not be playing fair? Because they do not pay for their employee's health insurance benefits? Maybe some small businesses can't afford it? I don't see why the government should intervene and tell a business that they have to provide this. Businesses that provide benefits have the choice to provide them or not. Its not required to pay for health insurance premiums or 401K match. We do it because it helps us retain good employees. They have great benefits, and if they ever thought about moving on to work somewhere else they would have to consider what we offer them. As far as your comment about what the difference is if I am paying for the benefits now, and will continue if the government mandates it...Maybe you didn't read my post close enough. I said that what if something was to happen to our company that put us in a spot where we could not afford the pay the full health benefits? Then what? At that point there may need to be a choice made to have to lay off employees in order to pay for the benefits. Don't start a business if you don't want to deal with unforseeable circumstances is my opinion. I mean, you start a business to make money, right? To not work for someone else. To be your own boss, I would guess. All's fair in love and capitalism. People need health insurance. They need to be able to see a doctor and not fall into incredible debts and lose their homes. Sorry... just my opinion.
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Post by NYR on Mar 30, 2010 22:30:03 GMT -5
lions, i truly respect your opinion, especially given your background in this, but i'm gonna have to side with bwilder on this one.
and +k for globe, too. very well put.
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Post by lionsden® on Mar 31, 2010 9:31:00 GMT -5
Why would businesses not be playing fair? Because they do not pay for their employee's health insurance benefits? Maybe some small businesses can't afford it? I don't see why the government should intervene and tell a business that they have to provide this. Businesses that provide benefits have the choice to provide them or not. Its not required to pay for health insurance premiums or 401K match. We do it because it helps us retain good employees. They have great benefits, and if they ever thought about moving on to work somewhere else they would have to consider what we offer them. As far as your comment about what the difference is if I am paying for the benefits now, and will continue if the government mandates it...Maybe you didn't read my post close enough. I said that what if something was to happen to our company that put us in a spot where we could not afford the pay the full health benefits? Then what? At that point there may need to be a choice made to have to lay off employees in order to pay for the benefits. Don't start a business if you don't want to deal with unforseeable circumstances is my opinion. I mean, you start a business to make money, right? To not work for someone else. To be your own boss, I would guess. All's fair in love and capitalism. People need health insurance. They need to be able to see a doctor and not fall into incredible debts and lose their homes. Sorry... just my opinion. That has got to be one of the dumbest statements I have ever read. Don't start your own business? The American Dream? A reason why there are millions and millions of people that want to move here from other countries? Yeah people need health insurance, but why force small businesses to pay for it? It should be optional. These businesses are already providing them a benefit...A job. Also I am not sure what you are getting at with "being your own boss" in relevance to your first sentence Oh and NYR if you happen to agree with his first sentence I guess you are not as bright as I thought you were. Maybe lay off the weed out in Colorado for a few weeks to clear your head
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Post by NYR on Mar 31, 2010 12:29:27 GMT -5
i rarely smoke, but it is good stuff out here
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Post by caro on Mar 31, 2010 19:19:27 GMT -5
I do not have any moral issues. I employ 20 people, and each one gets great health insurance. It costs our company about $6,000 per year for each employee, and nothing out of their pockets. That is our choice of how we run our business. We have also managed to get through this recession so far. Under Obamacare we would be forced to provide health insurance, or else pay a penalty. Is that right? Why should the government tell me how to run my business? We provide right now, but what if something happened down the road where we were forced to either make the decision to provide the insurance, or let people go? Now you have people that have health care...woohoo!...but do not have a job. Globe...I understand the situation with parents growing old. I have a father in poor health. Thing is here once you turn 65 the government already provides healthcare. It called Medicare. And I guess you also had to bring up the previous regime and its expenditures. We were all happy? I don't think so. I am not going to get into a discussion about the wars, but fact is Obama is still in Afghanistan spending money. We also have a stimulus bill that was passed that is spending trillions, and our Social Security system is bankrupt. I have paid in probably close to $80,000 for Social Security. Leave my fucking money alone! The simple fact is we can't afford this. lionsden, if you're paying your employees health insurance now, what difference does it make if the government mandates it or not? That's like saying, "I've never gotten a speeding ticket and will never speed so we don't need police enforcing speeding laws." What's a government's job, if not to protect people from getting fucked over? Just because you're playing fair, doesn't mean other businesses are. the answer to your question is in the post... Why would businesses not be playing fair? Because they do not pay for their employee's health insurance benefits? Maybe some small businesses can't afford it? I don't see why the government should intervene and tell a business that they have to provide this. Businesses that provide benefits have the choice to provide them or not. Its not required to pay for health insurance premiums or 401K match. We do it because it helps us retain good employees. They have great benefits, and if they ever thought about moving on to work somewhere else they would have to consider what we offer them. As far as your comment about what the difference is if I am paying for the benefits now, and will continue if the government mandates it...Maybe you didn't read my post close enough. I said that what if something was to happen to our company that put us in a spot where we could not afford the pay the full health benefits? Then what? At that point there may need to be a choice made to have to lay off employees in order to pay for the benefits. Don't start a business if you don't want to deal with unforseeable circumstances is my opinion. I mean, you start a business to make money, right? To not work for someone else. To be your own boss, I would guess. All's fair in love and capitalism. People need health insurance. They need to be able to see a doctor and not fall into incredible debts and lose their homes. Sorry... just my opinion. That is certainly the dumbest post in this thread.... Don't start a business, don't create job, don't create growth, don't work hard for your family and don't support your employees' families because if you do you're punished... Wow that's nice! We would be in deep shit if there were no entrepreneurs. They should get support from the government, not obstacles... If there were no entrepreneurs I wonder where the government would get its tax money
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Post by NYR on Mar 31, 2010 20:42:29 GMT -5
caro, that's not what he was saying. what i think bwilder was saying was that capitalism doesn't go in a one way street alone. the employees alone don't reap all the benefits. what it comes down to is whether or not you believe healthcare should be the employer's responsibility for his or her workers. i believe it is, and so does he. you and lions feel differently.
the way i see it is that if you can't work because you're sick, you can't work. that costs the business money. businesses who treat their employees well (i.e. giving the healthcare) get better productivity as well. so, at the end of the day, i think giving healthcare to employees only reap benefits for businesses.
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Post by bwilder on Apr 3, 2010 11:07:01 GMT -5
caro, that's not what he was saying. what i think bwilder was saying was that capitalism doesn't go in a one way street alone. the employees alone don't reap all the benefits. what it comes down to is whether or not you believe healthcare should be the employer's responsibility for his or her workers. i believe it is, and so does he. you and lions feel differently. the way i see it is that if you can't work because you're sick, you can't work. that costs the business money. businesses who treat their employees well (i.e. giving the healthcare) get better productivity as well. so, at the end of the day, i think giving healthcare to employees only reap benefits for businesses. SPOT ON, BROTHER!
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Post by NYR on Apr 3, 2010 15:39:10 GMT -5
see, not all yankee fans are illiterate...
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Post by lionsden® on Apr 10, 2010 10:32:52 GMT -5
see, not all yankee fans are illiterate... Neither you or the Red Sox fan are giving any valid points as to why government should make it mandatory for businesses to pay for health care. Its either...Oh its the right thing to do...or hey you want to start a business than pay the consequences...Well there were no consequences like this until Obama and The Joker essentially rammed this through. You both speak of capitalism. Sounds and smells more like socialism to me.
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